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Hmmm......
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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 posted January 14, 2003 06:01 AM    
I want to hear what the players think about D&D. What is it? Do you believe it is evil? Do you believe it involves witchcraft? To you believe it involves Satan? What makes it different from other role playing games?
~Mel ![[Bounce]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/jump.gif) ![[ROFL]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/roflmao.gif) ![[Angel]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/angel.gif)
[ January 14, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: christian3_777 ]
From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
gothic Sunshine
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posted January 14, 2003 06:06 AM
How about we let this thread die.
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DM: I heard that these are trendy
PC: ...
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Saqarastar
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posted January 14, 2003 06:06 AM
[ January 14, 2003, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: Saqarastar ]
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Save the Core Transmuter Foundation Member #4. I succumbed to the madness...
From: Leeuwarden, the Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Saqarastar
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posted January 14, 2003 06:07 AM
![[Dubious]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/dubious.gif)
Wrong board.
Impersonating Mel...now THAT's evil!
No, D&D isn't evil.
Satanism AND witchcraft? Do some research, bub.
And the fact that man ypeople play it makes it different. Also, D&D is the first rpg.
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Save the Core Transmuter Foundation Member #4. I succumbed to the madness...
From: Leeuwarden, the Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged | |
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Vintrastorm
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posted January 14, 2003 06:15 AM
and what's your definition of satanism?
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Min/Maxing doesn't equal evil
Min/Maxing doesn't equal munchkinism
Min/Maxing doesn't equal powergaming
Min/Maxing doesn't equal bad roleplaying
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Min/Maxers simply do it better
From: Sweden | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Saqarastar
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posted January 14, 2003 06:17 AM
No, witchcraft isn't that way.
You haven't done your research, though.
And I'm not getting into a flamewar.
Forget about Mel.
And to any passing WizOs: Please lock this tread!
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Save the Core Transmuter Foundation Member #4. I succumbed to the madness...
From: Leeuwarden, the Netherlands | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged | |
gothic Sunshine
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posted January 14, 2003 06:21 AM
*shakes his head*
Am I the only one that thinks it's slightly ironic that we (role players..) have a firmer grip on reality than religious fanatics who slander D&D? I can separate my fantasy & mythology from the real world.
*agrees with the locking of the thread*
[ January 14, 2003, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: gothic Sunshine ]
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Jak Shadow
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posted January 14, 2003 06:34 AM
C'mon guys, stop wheeling out the billy goats, this troll has eaten enough already. Just let it go to sleep somewhere in a corner.
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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
LTugo
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posted January 14, 2003 07:24 AM
You know, when I'm playing RISK, why is it that nobody accuses me of channeling Hitler, Napoleon, or Stalin? After all, in that game you're basically plunging the world into an all-encompasing armed conflict just to satisfy your desire for global conquest!
At least in D&D, the goals are much more limited and accessible. I mean, who wouldn't want to get rich and acquire cool toys in the real world too?
LTugo
From: Monterey, CA | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Raist25m
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posted January 14, 2003 07:42 AM
Rather than getting defensive, and disregarding Christian's question, why don't we go ahead and answer it. Harsh come-backs, and deriding him for asking questions is no way to help him/her see our side of things.
D&D is basically ad-lib acting. You have no script or anything. Just a piece of paper that lists your characters abilities. Everything from his skills, to how strong or wise that character is. You play in a setting much like Tolkein's Middle-Earth. There's magic, but the magic is NOTHING like what the old religions taught, nor is it anything evil. It's more like a spell in a video game. I'm sure you've seen the "Final Fantasy" series of games. Basically, put that on paper, and have a Dungeon Master instead of a game consol to give you the setting, and you've got a game of D&D.
No. D&D is NOT devil worship, and has NOTHING to do with Satan. You play a hero out slaying the forces of evil most of the time. Often emulating people such as David (Davind and Goliath) from the bible, or perhaps Ali-baba, or even Beowulf from Norse mythology. And 99% of the people that play know it's just a game. The other 1% is simply that set of dillusional people that are associated with any topic on the face of the earth.
If you REALLY want to know about D&D, the best thing to do is sit in on a game just to watch. You will quite likely find that it's something you enjoy, and want to play yourself. Just find a store that specializes in roleplaying products, and talk to one of the employees. I'm sure they'll help you out, so long as you're respectful to them. Remember, no-one likes to be accused of heinous things they have never even gone near. Would you like to be accused of devil-worship because you're a model builder, and you built a pirate ship, and painted a Jolly Roger on it? It's the same with our hobby. Allot of people that don't know anything about it, automatically make assumptions because some guy in religious vestments told them something. And that guy probably heard something from the friend of a neighbor who once saw a D&D game back in 1982 for all of 10 seconds.
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Jarg-- "Hey, don't get snuck up on by a rabid bear." *snicker*
Roarin (aka: bear)-- "Yeah, I'll try not to, and if I see a centaur, I'll have him send your girl your love."
From: Austin, TX | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged | |
SmiloDan
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posted January 14, 2003 08:49 AM
The only evil thing about D&D is how much less homework you don't do that you should. My old group used to play after church on Sundays. The group had two Eucharistic Ministers, and the son of a preacher man that was gonna be a preacher man.
From: Buffalo | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged | |
TranquilDarkness
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posted January 14, 2003 09:02 AM
**What is it?**
Well, it's a fantasy role playing game, which involves imagination, dice and some books...and snackfood...and music..
**Do you believe it is evil?**
IS evil? no...but it can be made as evil as the players/DM wants....at least in the sense that the game can involve moral dilemma's and vile situations.
** Do you believe it involves witchcraft?**
Much the same as evil...it can involve witchcraft. But the game itself has no need for practical witchcraft. The game has little need for anything practical, actually...just rolling the dice.
** To you believe it involves Satan?**
The real-world, make-belief, boogey man? no. it involves a whole array of demons and other evil fiendish things, but no-one named Satan. (of course, individual DM's might want to go that way...but hey, people go all sorts of different ways.)
** What makes it different from other role playing games?**
Ehm, depends on which other games you mean? There are science fiction games that take place in futuristic settings instead of a medieval setting. Others are more in the NOW.
Some involve playing on the good side, others 'bout playing the dark side. Some are purely for fun, others can be made as serious as you'd like.
The biggest difference with most other systems is simply the amount of material available, especially with the new open game system.
With D&D you can go alot of different ways.
Why these questions?
From: Netherlands | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged | |
CS Perkins
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posted January 14, 2003 09:44 AM
Plain and simple, it's a game. You and your friends interact (under the guidance of a DM) to build a storyline revolving around your characters' exploits. Hopefully you and your friends have fun, create an interesting story, and eat lots of junkfood.
Beyond that, as in most things in life, people bring their own ideas and ideals into it (for good or ill).
From: Staten Island, NY | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Rorshac
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posted January 14, 2003 09:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LTugo:
You know, when I'm playing RISK, why is it that nobody accuses me of channeling Hitler, Napoleon, or Stalin? After all, in that game you're basically plunging the world into an all-encompasing armed conflict just to satisfy your desire for global conquest!
You mean you aren't supposed to?
Well, theat explains (a) why I get funny looks, and (b) why I win so often...
![[Devilish]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
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"The only way to defeat me is with a swimming pool full of suger-free Angel Delight, and thats the one thing you don't have!"
From: A large rock in the middle of the Irish Sea. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 12:39 PM
Saqarastar
Concerning researching, you may want to look into a few issues and concepts also.
I personally hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. Although I myself play D&D, I have questioned the morality of doing so as of recent.
The issue is that we should really be spending our time doing uplifting things. Dwelling on thoughts of slaying enemies, running swords through monsters, and thinking that some undead (perversions of nature) look really cool, are definately not uplifting concepts or ideals. I know, you'll point to R rated movies, which show similar things, as being socially acceptable (of course Sodom, and Gomorrah were socially acceptable also at the time).
From the psychological point of view, D&D may be a cause in desensitizing us (just as it's proven fact that violent video games desensitize us against violence).
What does this all really mean though? Well whereas I do not think that D&D is inherantly evil, I do believe it to be a grey area. That is to say I believe that to be more spiritual is to have a greater desire to do more uplifting things in life, and less of things which aren't.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Rorshac
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posted January 14, 2003 03:10 PM
Team sport has caused more violence, hatred and death than any RPG. If RPGs are a "grey" area, football must be an area as black as a black cat in lightless coal cellar.
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"The only way to defeat me is with a swimming pool full of suger-free Angel Delight, and thats the one thing you don't have!"
From: A large rock in the middle of the Irish Sea. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 03:19 PM
I would like to thank Raist25m and others who have not gotten on the defensive because of my question. I find often that a simple question makes people think I'm going to take their views to WWF smackdown, so they make sure they get the first puch. That's one of the main things that turned me off of D&D was the players being on the offensive because I'm a Christian. I'm sorry, but that is so discriminitive and hypocritical. Recently, I had one of my friends (who plays D&D) ask me my opinion on it. I gave it to him and he got all ****** . Hey, he asked my opinion.
All I wanted to know was the D&D player's views on what they're dealing with. If you don't want to answer a simple question and you're going to be defensive, the best thing is to leave it alone and not comment in the thread.
P.S. If people are going to be inmature about this, I will lock the thread myself. ![[Turkey]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/turkey.gif)
[ January 14, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: christian3_777 ]
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 03:21 PM
Rorshac
What hatred and death has football caused (assuming you mean American, which I personally see as nothing more then a sport for fat overweight jocks).
Now if you mean European, soccer, then yes, the emotions it inspires probably isn't so good.
So many at judgement will complain their actions couldn't have been wrong because they were socially acceptable <shrugs>
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
soceror01
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posted January 14, 2003 03:28 PM
witchcraft! in my opinoin d&d is another game for christian and other groups to nag on just like harry potter or marlyin manson. d&d is simply a game that you get to together with your friends and have fun exploring your mind. there's no question about "there is evil in this here game" or "satan has been invoiled withthe dungeons anad dragons since the start." its just a good game. a game where you have ato use your imagination. it has also sparked the amagination of game develpoers. almost every game you play thats a rpg on a computer or game console has aspects dervied from d&d. its even a alternative sport. as my friend calls it. you dont have to be tall big or strong to play which makes even better for kids to start playing, not meetioning all the extra math problems the kids will be doing and not even noticing it. lol well hope i answered you question.
From: pa | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Farland
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posted January 14, 2003 03:36 PM
D&D is a great and creative hobby; there is nothing evil or Satanic about it. The only danger in it is spending too much time on it; I'm guilty of this.
Oh, and... you can't lock your own thread. Sorry.
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The World of Farland:
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www.farlandcampaign.homestead.com
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AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 03:38 PM
soceror01
I'd sooner my children giving community service, attending various programs, or similar such activities before they sit down with friends and dwell and imagine the ideas of killing living beings (which is pretty much the driving progression system of D&D).
To call something "Satanic" is something far sneakier than the media would have us believe. It is not exclusive to murder, or candlelight lit Ouija-driven games. It's the embodiment of doing anything against the will of God. Even little sins (watching porn, drinking "strong drink", watching movies with gratuitous violence) are considered Satanic.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
ShadeGirl
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posted January 14, 2003 03:43 PM
Is this for real? You only live once. Why not spend it doing something you enjoy and that makes you happy as long as its not hurting anyone?
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"Not from life yet bond from death, Vacant from the eternal path, Force not on lethal faith, Everlasting gull of devil's wrath".
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Cathal
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posted January 14, 2003 03:44 PM
If satan is involved in a game I'm playing, it is beaause my character is beating him up in the name of good. I play good, noble characters who strive to rid the world of evil and dark powers. I don't think there is anything wrong with that from a christian standpoint. Almost every character my gaming group creates is good. Some are neutrla, and none have ever been evil.
shadowguidex
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Political Revolutionary fighting for a free and just Hlath
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Ephrion
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Member # 106327
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posted January 14, 2003 03:46 PM
Rorshac - *nod*
Witches don't believe in a satan. Christians are so arrogant to think every other religion automatically has the same cosmology as theirs.
Anyway, to answer your questions -
quote:
I want to hear what the players think about D&D. What is it?
It's a Role Playing Game. It's a lot like acting, or make-believe, except with rules. And trust me, it's a lot better than free form when a lamer has infinite HP and all his attacks deal 9,999 out.
quote:
Do you believe it is evil?
Dungeons and Dragons is in itself not evil. It's about as evil as a gun. No, wait, let me clarify that... Evil as a rubber gun with no ammunition.
quote:
Do you believe it involves witchcraft?
Other than the Witch class in the Dungeon Master's Guide, Witchcraft has not been mentioned once in the three core rulebooks. There are spells, of course, but they don't require the player to do witchcraft more than, say, listening to Paul Oakenfold.
quote:
To you believe it involves Satan?
Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells of Baator, is one example of a 'Satan' figure, however I'm pretty sure that one of the Lords of the Nine was an archcelestial. There are, of course, many fiends in the game, but they are as real as your characters are.
As for the Christian Satan, no, there is no mention of him in any of the core rulebooks. Or any mention of Christianity, excepting the reference in the Dungeon Master's Guide in the topic of creating new religions.
quote:
What makes it different from other role playing games?
Well, the Dungeons and Dragons line of games is the most popular. I guess that's really all.
...
quote:
From the psychological point of view, D&D may be a cause in desensitizing us (just as it's proven fact that violent video games desensitize us against violence).
... It's not a proven fact. The blood on Resident Evil, or the zombies, are NOTHING to real life. If you have a strong stomach, and haven't eaten in a while, check rotten.com . That's real life stuff, and it's a hell of a lot nastier than anything in any video game. Compared to Dungeons and Dragons, which -has- no graphics, which you really can't do.
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One of my players cast Magic Missile into the darkness. ^_^
From: the Sylx Tower | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 03:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
soceror01
I'd sooner my children giving community service, attending various programs, or similar such activities before they sit down with friends and dwell and imagine the ideas of killing living beings (which is pretty much the driving progression system of D&D).
To call something "Satanic" is something far sneakier than the media would have us believe. It is not exclusive to murder, or candlelight lit Ouija-driven games. It's the embodiment of doing anything against the will of God. Even little sins (watching porn, drinking "strong drink", watching movies with gratuitous violence) are considered Satanic.
Exactly what are you trying to say? Your view is slightly unclear on if that has anything to do with D&D........just wondering.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 03:47 PM
ShadeGirl
Let's pretend that there is an afterlife, and you will be judged by how you live here.
Would you sooner sacrifice and live good for your Earthly life (say 80 years), and then spend the rest of eternity living with Christ. Or would you rather do as you please as long as it hurts nobody else, then spend the rest of eternity wishing you hadn't?
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 03:48 PM
christian3_777
The point is people are too quick to say something is good, without even knowing what "good" really is.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
littlesaltz
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posted January 14, 2003 03:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
soceror01
I'd sooner my children giving community service, attending various programs, or similar such activities before they sit down with friends and dwell and imagine the ideas of killing living beings (which is pretty much the driving progression system of D&D).
True. But I'd also love my kid (well, I don't have one, I'm 15 ![[Smile]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/smile.gif) ) to interact socially with 6 other kids for a few hours every week than spend it sitting on his behind watching TV.
D&D is violence-based, yes, but the fantasy factor in it makes it a valuable imaginative tool, a good stress reliever, and fun.
quote:
To call something "Satanic" is something far sneakier than the media would have us believe. It is not exclusive to murder, or candlelight lit Ouija-driven games. It's the embodiment of doing anything against the will of God. Even little sins (watching porn, drinking "strong drink", watching movies with gratuitous violence) are considered Satanic.
The problem with this is that I don't believe in Satan, and my view of God probably isn't the same as yours. I respect yours, but both of ours are just opinions.
Is D&D Satanic by your view? It could easily be argued so.
Does your definition of Satanic fit mine? No.
Therefore, in my view, is D&D evil? No.
Putting Satan into it complicates things greatly.
Saltz
From: Wynnewood, PA, USA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Ephrion
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posted January 14, 2003 03:54 PM
Adrian - Let's pretend there's nothing when you die. Your brain cells simply stop communicating, and you don't think, don't see, don't feel, don't experience time. Now, was your 80 years good? If no, oop, to bad. If yes, good for you.
Now, if there was proof of an afterlife, then I'd be a lot quicker to do community service than, say, argue about the chance of it on a message board.
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Member 0000002 of the Nothing Sucks Foundation!
One of my players cast Magic Missile into the darkness. ^_^
From: the Sylx Tower | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
soceror01
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posted January 14, 2003 03:58 PM
d&d is game. i was infectted witha rare leg dease. bacuse of it, i had to ose both of my legs. for one thing i was never good at sports, so now i relaly suck.lol. the only thing i could do is indoor games, like d&d and magic. also playing guitar along with metallica, just plop that cd in and there you go, its lie you in t he concert. but anyway, what im trying to say is that GOd may have a purpose for these kinds of games. im sure god probly wouldn't play d&d, but he might not drink ilk either. does that mean you can't drink milk. ok now im off subject agian. what im trying to say is that d&d is a great game for people like me and people who are sosciallly ineceptable. well even if there exceptible its still fun. you can have fun and go into your own world and you dont have to pay attention to the outside. its a great game and not any one candiey that.
From: pa | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 04:00 PM
Yes, it may be 'just a game', but the resulting effect on one's mind cannot be controled. Once images or ideas are put into our mind, they cannot be erased. If visited continually, it becomes an addiction. People who watch violent shows or listen to negative music are more likely to do something radical. I know from experience that these things have an effect on our minds and emotions. Likewise, even a role playing game involving evil sprits can become so real in one's mind, they begin to live out the game in everyday life. It is inevitable.
Many will argue that there is no 'brain washing or mind contol' involved in the game since they don't believe in Satan. However, you cannot argue with the fact that there is both good and evil in this world, and whatever side you give into takes control.
As for me, I don't need to have a definition for good and evil. You know when somethings wrong or right, it's simply conscience.
Finally, in concordance of what some have said, I would rather live my life for Christ than be wrong in the end. Even if there were no such thing as God, what would be lost?
That's just my opinion though. The first part has been proved by scientific study.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
ShadeGirl
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posted January 14, 2003 04:01 PM
You're asking me to admit that there is an afterlife after all. Truly, I believe there is. I was raised by my parents who are devout christians and have tried to hammer the same into me.
All my life I heard that D&D was evil, and so I avoided it. But then I was at a friends house and sat in on a game. All I saw was alot of people using their imagination. I'm an aspiring fantasy writer, so I didn't see the harm in that, and decided to join the game.
If there is an afterlife and I will be condemned to a life of torture and suffering just because I played D&D, then clearly something is tragically wrong with the universe. I know that to very religious people, they go by what the Bible says that all sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore a game of D&D is just as bad as murder by their view.
I play D&D because I have a deep yearning to use my imagination, as I have since I was a little girl. I have always sworn that it is the one talent that I have, and D&D provides a very good outlet for this. I feel that most of the discord for D&D comes from people being misinformed, or ignorant as to how it is played.
But if the one true being of the universe, God or whoever, deems it necessary to make me suffer for eternity because I played this game, then maybe it is not a god I would care to be affiliated with at all.
As you see I am still trying to find my foothold on where I stand with my faith. I do know for sure that when I play this game, I am not doing anything evil or debase. I am simply using what God himself gave me: My imagination.
-ShadeGirl
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"Not from life yet bond from death, Vacant from the eternal path, Force not on lethal faith, Everlasting gull of devil's wrath".
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Avin
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posted January 14, 2003 04:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
By definition, satanism and witchcraft are the same thing. Witchcraft is the act of inviting an evil spirit to empower you to cast spells. Though it may not be the intent, witchcraft is allowed by the devil and evil spirits.
by which definition? most modern witches would disagree with you. some people could say that animal sacrifices are paganism, but we have a lot of it in the old testament...
i knew some modern witches (which can't move even a paper with their "power") and they are good people. i don't believe in what they believe, but they are normal people.
From: Brazil | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
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Avin
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posted January 14, 2003 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
Yes, it may be 'just a game', but the resulting effect on one's mind cannot be controled. Once images or ideas are put into our mind, they cannot be erased.
(...)
That's just my opinion though. The first part has been proved by scientific study.
No, it's wrong. Images can be erased chemically or physically. We don't need to go far to have an example: people who are hit in the head or have brain damage in an acident.
So, if someone says that memories can't be erased, this people are not talking by scientific means...
From: Brazil | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:11 PM
ShadeGirl
Pain and suffering? Hell is not these things. Hell is *knowing* that God exists. Being in his presence. And then being cast away for time and all eternity for wrong decisions you made in this life. I personally have played D&D for over eight years. I know it very well, and I know God's will very well.
As for your comments on not wanting to be associated with God if it means not playing D&D, that is just sad. I personally would give up D&D if my own wife asked me to with reason let alone some God. If you would sooner play D&D then defer to a God (which you'd come to know existed), then surely you must be addicted. As you say D&D is just a game. If you can't easily drop it, something is wrong.
[ January 14, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: AdrianLP ]
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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posted January 14, 2003 04:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Avin:
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
By definition, satanism and witchcraft are the same thing. Witchcraft is the act of inviting an evil spirit to empower you to cast spells. Though it may not be the intent, witchcraft is allowed by the devil and evil spirits.
by which definition? most modern witches would disagree with you. some people could say that animal sacrifices are paganism, but we have a lot of it in the old testament...
i knew some modern witches (which can't move even a paper with their "power") and they are good people. i don't believe in what they believe, but they are normal people.
From the Merriam Webster Dictionary:
evil noun
1 whatever is harmful, distressing, or disastrous <attempts to grasp the nature of evil>
syn ill
rel bad, badness, devilry, diablerie, diabolism, evilness, satanism, satanity, wickedness, wrong
2 whatever is morally unacceptable <return good for evil>
syn debt, sin, wickedness, wrong
rel evildoing, misconduct, sinfulness, wrongdoing
3 a particular thing (as an act) that is evil <choose the lesser of two evils>
syn crime, diablerie, iniquity, sin, tort, wrong, wrongdoing
rel badness, evilness, maleficence, vice, wickedness; misdeed, offense
magic-noun
The use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces <the practice of magic>
syn bewitchment, conjuring, conjury, enchantment, ensorcellment, incantation, magicking, necromancy, sorcery, thaumaturgy, witchcraft, witchery, witching, wizardry
rel abracadabra, alchemy, augury, charm, divining, exorcism, fortune-telling, mumbo jumbo, occultism, soothsaying, sortilege, voodooism; devilry, deviltry, diablerie, diabolism, satanism; wicca
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 04:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
As you say D&D is just a game. If you can't easily drop it, something is wrong.
That's true. Anything can be an addiction. A game as much as a drug. Hey, I'll admit it. I'm addicted to pop. But if it came to the point where it was a matter of life, death, and suffering, I'd get rid of it. I'm not saying D&D comes to this point for everyone, but for some people it does.
The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in 1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders, was an avid D&D player.51
D&D player (14 years old) commits suicide by hanging, 1979, name withheld by parents' request.
D&D player (17 years old) Michael Dempsey, Lynnwood, WA. suicide by gunshot wound to the head, 5/19/81. Witnesses saw him trying to summon up D&D demons just minutes before his death.
D&D player (age not mentioned) Steve Loyacano, Castle Rock, CO., suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning, 10/14/82. Police report satanic writings and a suicide note liked the death to D&D.
D&D player (21 years old) Timothy Grice, Lafayette, CO., suicide by shotgun blast, 1/17/83. Detective reports noted, "D&D became a reality. He thought he was not constrained to this life, but could leave [it] and return because of the game."
D&D player (18 years old) Harold T. Collins, Marion, OH., suicide by hanging, 4/29/83. Collins was noted to be "possessed" by D&D as if he were living the game.
D&D player (16 years old) Daniel Erwin, Lafayette, CO., murder by brother's shotgun blast to head, 11/2/84 (right after Halloween). Death was apparently the result of a death pact as part of the game.
D&D player (12 years old) Steve Erwin (see above) suicide by gunshot, 11/2/84. Detective report: "No doubt D&D cost them their lives."52
D&D player (no age given) Joseph Malin, Salt Lake City, UT., pled guilty to first degree murder 3/2/88 and was sentenced to life in prison. He killed a 13-year-old girl while acting out the fantasy-role game. The girl had been raped, her throat cut, and she had been stabbed twice in the chest. Police said his "violent urges were fed by 'extreme involvement in the fantasy role-playing game Dungeons and Dragons.'"53
D&D player (14 years old) Tom Sullivan, Jr. got into Satanism and ended up stabbing his mother to death, arranging a ritual circle (from D&D) in the middle of the living room floor and lit a fire in its midst. Fortunately, his dad and little brother were awakened by a smoke detector; but by then, Tom, Jr. had slashed his wrists and throat with his Boy Scout knife and died in the snow in a neighbor's yard. (1/19/88, Amarillo, TX).54
D&D player Danny Remeta went on an eight-state crime spree, including murder. In an interview in the DETROIT FREE PRESS, he asked, "Have you ever heard of Dungeons and Dragons? That had a lot to do with it It is not just a board game. It's a lot deeper than a board game. I've got five friends that are locked up for the same thing [murder] right now because of the game."55
D&D player (14 years old) Sean Sellers was convicted of killing his parents and a convenience store clerk in Greeley, Oklahoma (1/11/87). He was the youngest inmate of death row in the country before being executed for his crimes. His involvement in hard-core Satanism began with D&D, according to his own testimony. He became a Born Again Christian some time before his execution!
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:19 PM
christian3_777
I misunderstood Avin, and thought his post was a reply to me. I misread the quote he gave. Ignore what I said, it wasn't relevant to Avin's post.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
newtopdx
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posted January 14, 2003 04:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
Oh yeah, finally, just a suggestion. I noticed alot of the people that are hardcore against my opinions are around my age. That's understandable for a teen, but I encourage you to be mature enough to keep an open mind.
I'm 28, gamed for 16 of those off and on, and have never had a brush with any uncontrolled fantasy, never desired to act out my games in reality, never tried, believed in, or known anyone who has tried or believed in "actual" witchcraft, never believed in or worship any deity (good or evil), never had trouble distinguishing the real from the imagined, and never so much as dreamed about a game (something I can't say for intense videogame playing).
I visited your website about D&D. I could put the same spin on anything (especially religion) and I'm sure you could too. Please go elsewhere with your religion. There are other places on the web where discussion of real-world (not make believe) religions is welcomed. This is not one of those sites. This is a place to discuss a game. You obviously do not play it.
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From: Portland, OR | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
newtopdx
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posted January 14, 2003 04:28 PM
Shall we now list the attrocities performed in the name of God and Christ?
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I am not a unique and beautiful snowflake. I am the same decaying matter as everything else...
From: Portland, OR | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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Member # 60770
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posted January 14, 2003 04:29 PM
newtopdx
It's not an issue of you believing D&D to be real, or causing you to do evil things in the world. D&D is not uplifting. No scholary priest would argue. Simply playing D&D, even though it doesn't lead to real world actions, is not uplifting in itself.
That is what is in question.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:30 PM
newtopdx
Attrocities never came from authority of God, no matter who they claimed to be following.
Don't believe me, I beseach you, ask God himself. Would you be willing to harken to the answer you get? The answer that you yourself could not deny.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
ShadeGirl
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posted January 14, 2003 04:31 PM
quote:
As for your comments on not wanting to be associated with God if it means not playing D&D, that is just sad.
Excuse me, but I don't believe I showered negativity upon any of your posts. Maybe if you would stop taking the literal meaning of what I said, it would make more sense. I was trying to answer your responses in a mature and resourceful manner, but apparently you cannot respond in like kind.
What I meant was that if a god freaked out about something so trivial and sent him to hell for it, then THAT is the reason that I would not want to be affiliated with that god. Since we ARE talking about D&D I used that as an example.
quote:
I personally would give up D&D if my own wife asked me to with reason let alone some God.
I am engaged to a wonderful man who shares my interest, but if he asked me to give up D&D, I would do so in a heartbeat.
You also have to take into consideration that not everyone shares your views. You are assuming that I believe in a god and that "since he says so" I would drop D&D. If I believed in a god, then yes, I would probably stop this game. But you are directly accusing me of being "addicted" and you are using the pretnse that "if I believed in a god surely I would drip it", even though you have NOTHING to base your ignorant accusations on.
What are you trying to accomplish here? Strike debate where none will be heard, neither on one side or the other? Did you come to "educate" all of us on the satanic nature of the game? Trust me, everyone has heard it before and our skins are hardened to your constant dispargment of our hobby.
I have stated in what I hoped was a cordial manner how I felt about D&D in addition to some religious issues, and you write back and hollar that I am addicted, although you have nothing to base that on. I will take that as a thinly veiled insult, and proof that you are merely frequenting this board to cause strife among people who merely come here to discuss game issues.
If you want to discuss how evil D&D is, this is not the place to do it. Eventually tempers will rise so high that the moderators will be forced to close down the boards.
Leave us here to play D&D then, and take your issues elsewhere where you may harvest more sympathy for your ignorant opinions.
-ShadeGirl
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"Not from life yet bond from death, Vacant from the eternal path, Force not on lethal faith, Everlasting gull of devil's wrath".
Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 04:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by soceror01:
d&d is game. i was infectted witha rare leg dease. bacuse of it, i had to ose both of my legs. for one thing i was never good at sports, so now i relaly suck.lol. the only thing i could do is indoor games, like d&d and magic. also playing guitar along with metallica, just plop that cd in and there you go, its lie you in t he concert. but anyway, what im trying to say is that GOd may have a purpose for these kinds of games. im sure god probly wouldn't play d&d, but he might not drink ilk either. does that mean you can't drink milk. ok now im off subject agian. what im trying to say is that d&d is a great game for people like me and people who are sosciallly ineceptable. well even if there exceptible its still fun. you can have fun and go into your own world and you dont have to pay attention to the outside. its a great game and not any one candiey that.
Ok. Even though a man is without his legs dosen't mean he cannot live spiritually the same. I'm sorry you had to go through what you did, but we all have constricting things in life. I have a leg problem to and I was ripped away from the love of my life; soccer. I am forced to sit and watch others as I obtain one physical illness after another. But somehow I manage to sit home and play my guitar along with Third Day, Audio Adrenaline, Relient K, and Tom Petty, as well as writing my own songs to praise God for the things I do have. I guess what drives my heart to be so strong willed for Christ is the miracles that I have seen. Yes, evil also exsists and is falsly displayed in order to draw people in. Evil and good spirits exist. Most people have seen it. The fact is, evil wants to drag me down. Many Strong Willed Christians live hell on earth because the evil one wants us to turn away from God. Hey, if we were doing the wrong thing, life would be emotionally easier. Evil would leave us alone.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
newtopdx
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posted January 14, 2003 04:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
newtopdx
Attrocities never came from authority of God, no matter who they claimed to be following.
Don't believe me, I beseach you, ask God himself. Would you be willing to harken to the answer you get? The answer that you yourself could not deny.
The same exact argument could be said of D&D:
"Attrocities never came from authority of D&D material, no matter what they claimed to be following."
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From: Portland, OR | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Avin
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Member # 57523
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posted January 14, 2003 04:35 PM
i'm brazilian. there's no reference to satanism in brazilian's dictionaries.
now it's your time to keep open minded. what god says that? the old testament god who allowed slavery (exodus) and says people who eat pork shoud be death? you obviously know this arguments but if you, as me, read the bible you should have noticed a lot of bugs between the testaments.
i really don't believe that the bible is perfect. you have options: or jesus was a fake (i don't believe it) or god was mistaken/changes his mind of what he thought in the old testament.
i prefer to believe that men and centuries have messing a good part of the bible, wich i will never read literally.
so, i don't believe god will punish people who plays D&D and i will fight to the last breath to be judged only bi him, not for people who point fingers to me and says i'm a satanist or something like that, because god don't give this power to anyone.
i am as free as god allowed me.
no offense, of course
From: Brazil | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Kevmann
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Member # 106090
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posted January 14, 2003 04:36 PM
I acctualy am quite ammused at this!
christian3_777, the answer to your question is simple, D&D is what you make of it.
I guess, somewere out there, there is a group of satan worshipers playing D&D. But the point is, most people belive that D&D is a harmless game. I myself am a christian and belive in God and an afterlife, I belive that people who belive they can cast spells or who can commune with the devil have serious problems and need help. I belive murder is wrong, as well as steeling and all of the other sins. I also belive that D&D is not evil because to me it is a game just like any other. One could say that the game of Sorry is a bad game because it instills the idea that to win in life you must take down and remove all others that threaten your win. Anything and everything can be seen as evil in this world, but I do not, in any way, belive that I can cast spells nor do I belive that with some dark compact with the devil that I can gain greater power because D&D. D&D does not, in fact, make me break any of the sins in the bible.
With this last point, lets make an important difference. If my character lies to some NPC in the game, I myself am not lieing. It is not considered as sin if you lie to fictional characters. It is not considered a sin if a fictional character lies to a fictional character. If a person writes a book that includes the villan of the story murdering an innocent man, is the author hauled off to jail and charged with murder? Nither is it a lie for my character to lie, even murder an NPC. If you belive this, then you must say that the person who wrote the Bible has indeed sined because he wrote situations of sin in the bible.
I am very curious as to know christian3_777's opinions on this subject in detail.
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AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:38 PM
newtopdx
The attrocity of D&D is the fact that it is not uplifting.
I'm not talking about children who go out and do "evil" or illegal things after playing D&D. I'm talking about the D&D session itself. Dwelling on thoughts of killing and slaughtering is certainly not uplifting.
If in your games of D&D you spend more time actually role playing then fighting, bravo, I have no issue with this. However the D&D system certainly promotes fighting and violence. After all the core system details fighting and it's skills more then any other individual skill.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
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Avin
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posted January 14, 2003 04:40 PM
by the way, you know how a word goes to the dictionary? by use. if a christian associates satanism to witchcraft eventually the synonym will be there. it does not mean that it's a general definition of what witchcraft is.
From: Brazil | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:43 PM
Avin
Then we shall accept God's version?
christian3_777
I do/have played D&D for a very long time. I know it and very many other systems very well.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 04:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Avin:
i'm brazilian. there's no reference to satanism in brazilian's dictionaries.
now it's your time to keep open minded. what god says that? the old testament god who allowed slavery (exodus) and says people who eat pork shoud be death?
Well, as you know, Adam and Eve chose sin in the beginning. Hence slavery and other sin. He did have Moses and Aaron set the people free by entrusting them with His protection and power. As far as the pork, it was forbidden to eat an animal meant for sacrifice. Sacrifice is how people's sins were forgiven before Jesus came to die for us.
Oh yeah, no offense taken
Your post makes the forum quite interesting
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:49 PM
christian3_777
You may want to read back concerning the definition. I mistook the recipient of Avin's post, and revised my own.
As for the original sin concept. They couldn't both remain in the garden and procreate (they were in a perfect state while in the garden and could not have offspring). So no matter which way they chose it was transgression (it wasn't a "sin", it was transgression).
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Maruuk
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posted January 14, 2003 04:49 PM
oooooh, i was wondering when a good ol's fashioned theological debate was gonna show up here. Althought I am a witch, and do not personally believe in the existance of satan, i wont be resorting to belief bashing here. D&D is a game that in now way has little connection to the christian religion. The exception being the existance of a plane which actually is called the 9 hells. As such, i think it unfair to try to classify it under terms used in christian dogma. It in no way involves satan as far as i can tell of my limited knowledge of the figure in the christian faith. In terms of witchcraft, one could argue that it does, but finding an un-biased definition for the term is nearly impossible. If you would define it as casting spells, yes, witchcraft is part of D&D in story but not in the actual practice of the game. Whether or not casting spells involves conjuring evil spirits is not a fact that anyone can state. I believe it does not, im sure my christian friends believe it does, and i leave it at that. Even in dictionaries like the one you've quoted from have their own biases based upon the editors beliefs. The placement of religiously connotated words in the dictionary makes sense so long as the definitions therein convey the fact that those particular definitions apply to certain faiths alone.
In response to evil in D&D, it is most certainly there, but if the players choose to adopt the evil activites is really independant of the game itself. The real meat of the game usually is good people fighting evil creatures. I only think its fair to speak of good and evil thought on neutral terms that i think almost all of us can identify with. I would hope the christian arguers here would agree that not everyone is going to hold the same beliefs as them, and as such would not be able to respond to the accusation of D&D being "satanic". I, as im sure others are, am unable to identify with that term, and as such, cant really speak to prove or deny it. But i can identify with evil in terms of activities such as murder, which i hope most people would be able to identify as evil.
D&D can be a very violent game, and I would agree that small children can probably find a much more appropriate pass-time. However, it as just as easily possible for D&D to be a game completely based upon diplomacy and relationship building without a sword ever being drawn. I agree that this is a rare case, but it is the responibility of those playing to choose their style of play.
D&D is simply a medium, and cannot be blamed for the horrible crimes listed here. The people who played the game in such cases certainly got out of hand, and found an outlet for their violence through it. I would argue that similar people have gone on similar muderous rampages claiming that they are working the will of the christian god. I would never think to accuse the christian faith of producing the people who committ such crimes, just as i hope that D&D would not be blamed for such occurances.
D&D is a compliation of materials collected from other sources. ie there are clear references to tolkien material. I would then submit that while D&D uses this material, and that D&D is a fairly well known thing, it is possible that some of these crimes recieved their unfluences from other sources, and that since some of the same material may be included in some D&D text, its possible that a connection was made where none really exists.
As for your comment asking why not believe in god, because even if you are wrong, you havent lost anything, and you have everything to gain if you were right, i would most definately agree. However, this assumes that there is only one god to believe in, and given the plethora of religions that exists in this day in age, it is a much more difficult choice than that.
So basically in conclusion. D&D is fun. D&D has no inherent inclination on any axis of right and wrong, good or evil. D&D is a canvas on which people of all kinds can spread their ideas. Some people have good ideas, some people have evil ideas. Should someone choose to use D&D as a conduit for evil acitivities, it is of their doing and no blame can be placed on D&D. D&D can give ideas of evil acts just as easily as anything else can. As people have the free will to interpret things as they wish, one may interpret any documented writing to contain instructions to kill people or some other heinous act. D&D is often a violent game, and i would not recommended it for impressionable youth without supervision or the guidance of a player who is running a campaign of minimal violence.
From a religious perspective I think that taking religious ideas for facts is folly. For me, faith is sufficient. I make no claim that the deitys i worship exist and that the gods of others do not. I cant tell you that my gods exist, frankly, ive never met them. But i can tell you i believe that they do. It is my opinion that in order to answer the question of whether or not D&D is satanic, you must reject all other viewpoints and accept a christian orientation on the subject that not everyone can respond to. It's about time i stopped bugging everybody Cheers, enjoy the debate, im sure this thread will prove to be a doozy. Heck, it might even compare with the mighty BARDS STILL SUCK thread I wouldnt complain as that argument has been beaten to death, undeath, and whatevers beyond that... but i digress, thx fer readin, i hope ive enlightened your day ![[Big Grin]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/biggrin.gif)
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From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 04:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevmann:
I acctualy am quite ammused at this!
christian3_777, the answer to your question is simple, D&D is what you make of it.
I guess, somewere out there, there is a group of satan worshipers playing D&D. But the point is, most people belive that D&D is a harmless game. I myself am a christian and belive in God and an afterlife, I belive that people who belive they can cast spells or who can commune with the devil have serious problems and need help. I belive murder is wrong, as well as steeling and all of the other sins. I also belive that D&D is not evil because to me it is a game just like any other. One could say that the game of Sorry is a bad game because it instills the idea that to win in life you must take down and remove all others that threaten your win. Anything and everything can be seen as evil in this world, but I do not, in any way, belive that I can cast spells nor do I belive that with some dark compact with the devil that I can gain greater power because D&D. D&D does not, in fact, make me break any of the sins in the bible.
With this last point, lets make an important difference. If my character lies to some NPC in the game, I myself am not lieing. It is not considered as sin if you lie to fictional characters. It is not considered a sin if a fictional character lies to a fictional character. If a person writes a book that includes the villan of the story murdering an innocent man, is the author hauled off to jail and charged with murder? Nither is it a lie for my character to lie, even murder an NPC. If you belive this, then you must say that the person who wrote the Bible has indeed sined because he wrote situations of sin in the bible.
I am very curious as to know christian3_777's opinions on this subject in detail.
I, to have been amused at this. I didn't want this controversy to get totally out of hand, so if you want to hear my opinions in detail, go here:
https://salinesoccer.tripod.com/dnd-satansgame/
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 04:55 PM
Maruuk
There is no debate. God has spoken, and he is not to be coerced. As for being of Satan, scripture tells us something very prominent. All things which are good come from God. All else comes from Satan. Concerning children and D&D, I do not believe that anything not appropriate for a child (Save those ordained by God such as procreation within marriage) should be appropriate for an adult.
"D&D is simply a medium, and cannot be blamed for the horrible crimes listed here. The people who played the game in such cases certainly got out of hand, and found an outlet for their violence through it. I would argue that similar people have gone on similar muderous rampages claiming that they are working the will of the christian god. I would never think to accuse the christian faith of producing the people who committ such crimes, just as i hope that D&D would not be blamed for such occurances."
Who's talking about horrible crimes or real life violence? Not I. My concern is that D&D is not uplifting. Everything of God is uplifting.
As for believing or not in God, I would ask you not to believe in blind Faith. Go and read James 1:5, there you will find out how you can obtain your own proof.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Nadaka
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posted January 14, 2003 05:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
Oh yeah, finally, just a suggestion. I noticed alot of the people that are hardcore against my opinions are around my age. That's understandable for a teen, but I encourage you to be mature enough to keep an open mind.
I would suggest that you do the same. I am "hardcore against" your opinions because I DO have an open mind. I have already considered those opinions, weighed them, and found them lacking merit. That makes me a heretic, and I am proud to take that badge of honor. Did you know that the world heretic was originally defined as someone who has an open mind and who can make thier own decisions?
D&D is no more evil than monopoly. Its a game, a distraction, a form of social entertainment. Without entertainment the human mind stops functioning correctly. Without socialization, the human mind stops functioning correctly. Not only that but it is a game that emphisises creativity and thinking. D&D is a GOOD influence on people.
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I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.
From: Picayune, Mississippi | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged | |
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Ephrion
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posted January 14, 2003 05:26 PM
Looking at your site...
You obviously have never played Dungeons and Dragons. If you had, you'd know that half of your statements were incorrect.
Adrian - ... I don't see what your problem is. You have 70 years to live your life, spend what time you want at them. It's good for you if you do uplifting things, but I'm sure one night a week isn't going to condemn you to Hell.
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Member 0000002 of the Nothing Sucks Foundation!
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From: the Sylx Tower | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 05:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nadaka:
I would suggest that you do the same. I am "hardcore against" your opinions because I DO have an open mind. I have already considered those opinions, weighed them, and found them lacking merit. That makes me a heretic, and I am proud to take that badge of honor. Did you know that the world heretic was originally defined as someone who has an open mind and who can make thier own decisions?
D&D is no more evil than monopoly. Its a game, a distraction, a form of social entertainment. Without entertainment the human mind stops functioning correctly. Without socialization, the human mind stops functioning correctly. Not only that but it is a game that emphisises creativity and thinking. D&D is a GOOD influence on people.[/QB]
I'm guessing you're probably like 16 or 17. Sry that what I said offended you. But one thing I'd like to say is that creativity can be expressed through art, music, sports, dancing, and games that don't involve seeking to kill other players, steal thier possesions, and trying to make yourself better that others by your level of power.
No offense of course, but that is how I see it.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 05:28 PM
Anyway, I'm not really interested in argument or even debate. Should any person doubt God's will, if in faith they ask him, he shall communicate them directly. I'm a mere servant. I have no desire to argue here, and as such will not post to this thread again.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Agognon
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posted January 14, 2003 05:29 PM
Can D&D be uplifting? Could situations in the game spark conversations about ones own faith? Is time spent in the company of other children of god not uplifting?
D&D is no more evil than any of these things:
TV, Movies, Books, Hunting, Fishing, Sports, Video Games, Computers, the list is endless.
Any of these can be used both for good and for evil and so can D&D.
From: Albany, OR, USA | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 14, 2003 05:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ephrion:
[QB]Looking at your site...
You obviously have never played Dungeons and Dragons. If you had, you'd know that half of your statements were incorrect.
Considering the position we're all in right now, I don't think anyone can pose something as incorrect. By what people have basically been saying is that most people do not believe in one absolute truth, in which D&D would have no absolute outline and way to play.
The things I said were based upon research from multiple D&D sites as well as the Bible. Things that agreed on multiple sites, I included as part of my position. If you need that proved, I can include links. No, I have not played D&D, but I have spent endless hours reading about it. Playing it would be against my current position.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 05:36 PM
Grr, ok, one more.
Agognon
It could be. Look at the rule system though. It certainly favours fighting over totally pacifist adventures. Look at the number of fighting skills and feats compared to the individual non-weapon ones.
Maybe the player could play a cleric or paladin (etc) where fighting was not the basis of most adventures, and where his words, not his weapon, was the first thing to be drawn in every circumstance. Where he spent most of his adventures converting atheists, healing the sick, and finding the kidnapped.
I've played with very many who had a great deal of fighting. And I've seen ten fold more who talk of great exploits and battles in message boards.
Is it possible to play D&D in an uplifting manner? Yes, certainly. A person not of God would likely not know how to do this with regularity though.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
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RLWilde
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posted January 14, 2003 05:44 PM
I've scanned this thread with some interest. I play D&D, and also consider myself a Christian. I have also, in the past, had Wiccan friends (we've lost contact over the years).
Regarding the list of crimes associated with D&D: first, this list appears to be gathered from Jack Chick. Please understand that, to many of us, that greatly reduces the credibility of the argument.
But, even if we accept the list at face value, I would contest that the list in no way suggests that D&D caused any of these crimes. Roleplaying games, among other things, offer a chance for individuals to immerse themselves in another persona. I would not find it surprising to discover that persons with certain psychological disorders were attracted to this aspect of RPGs. This does not mean that that D&D in any way caused the crime, nor does it mean that a statistically significant percentage of players is at risk of committing a crime.
In order to accept this position, I would need to see a study showing a direct causal link between D&D and violence. This study would hopefully psychologically evaluate individuals before they start playing the game as well as after. It would need to compare the rate of violence to the population as a whole, as well as to other subsets of the population... athletes, sports fans, avid churchgoers, and so forth.
Just listing a few violent criminals who have had some association with RPGs is meaningless at best, and dishonest at worst.
Regarding the use of "witchcraft": the Bible was not written in Modern English, or any other modern language. Whatever word was used in the original texts has been copied, recopied, translated, and retranslated who knows how many times. I haven't yet heard a convincing argument linking the Bible's references to witchcraft to Wicca.
From: Long Beach, CA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 14, 2003 05:48 PM
RLWilde
Everyone keeps mentioning that D&D did not lead to "these crimes", but neglect to mention which crimes people are trying to tell them D&D lead too.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
thaosyr
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Member # 37321
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posted January 14, 2003 06:06 PM
Well Your worship of the christian god is against my scriptures. I worship the Grand Odin, he shall smite you when your time comes
irony: of or pretaining to iron
[ January 14, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: thaosyr ]
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
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thaosyr
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posted January 14, 2003 06:16 PM
80%???? where did you get those figures
1/3 of the world lives in china, they are mostly budist or No-religion
1/6th of the world lives in india, mostly Hindu or mulsim
of 7 billion people, 3 billion are from 2 countries. I sugest you check your math.
The Majority is never right anymore, thats why we have affermitive action
ps. didnt get that last part, did ya?
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Celebelen Khelekluin
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Member # 120735
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posted January 14, 2003 06:16 PM
I don't want to go flaming anyone no matter how insulted myself, and my girlfriend for that matter, are right now. We are both Wicca, and neither evil in any way. Most of these posts seem to imply that I am now evil of evil. Well, guess what. I was raised a Christian. But I have a very open mind. I decided to look for myself instead of being blindly told what to do...and here I am now.
Second, and the thing that REALLY gets me, is how there is a blantant disregard for all religions EXCEPT for Christianity. THAT is why I "left" Christianity. How can you just go off and say that your God is the only "correct" God? Did he give you a note? Is there a sign? Did he just, *gasp*, kill off all those other gods? THINK for a minute with your BRAIN and NOT your faith. What about all the other religions in the world? Can you just say that they're wrong because they don't believe the same as you do? There, you can now turn your faith back on.
Oh well, I said I wasn't going to get anymore angry, but its too late for that. There are reasons why I hate Christianity. Good reasons.
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"Picture a tall, dark figure surrounded by cornfields...
NO, YOU CAN'T RIDE A CAT. WHO EVER HEARD OF THE DEATH OF RATS RIDING A CAT? THE DEATH OF RATS WOULD RIDE SOME KIND OF DOG..."
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From: Ankh-Morpork | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Ephrion
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posted January 14, 2003 06:19 PM
Odin is a Norse diety.
And... I'm relatively sure that Christianity is closer to 40% of the worlds religion, with Islam with 20%, Judaism with 10%, and other religions with lesser percents, I think anyway. If I remember right.
And majority rule is a dumbass way to go about it anyway. I've always opposed that.
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One of my players cast Magic Missile into the darkness. ^_^
From: the Sylx Tower | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Grefter
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posted January 14, 2003 06:31 PM
It is my opinion that most things that have been said here are basicly either opinion or dogma, which either you accept or you do not.
As an avid gamer I do not believe the game is evil (obviously) but I am also a scientist and I follow the behavioral literature closely. People seem to say this or that has been proven scientifically, but they rarely do the research and look at the studies themselves. It just becomes hearsay or anecdotal evidence, which cannot be used to prove a point scientifically. The only thing that has been proven conclusively is that children, when exposed to violence, are more prone to be violent themselves. A convincing argument can be made that kids, who cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is not, should not be exposed to violent games. As a parent, I believe it is my responsability to censor what my daughter (a 2 year old bundle of energy that is the light of my eyes) has access to. I listen to what other people say, but ultimately it is my responsability and not the government's or any other institution.
"People who watch violent shows or listen to negative music are more likely to do something radical."
Actually, no good study has ever shown that and there are many good studies that show that there is no correlation. Citing suicides that have some kind of connection to gaming doesn't really prove anything, even if the connection is real. There are close to 17,000 suicides every year. The number of homicides is around that vicinity also. The vast majority of them have nothing to do with D&D, violent games, music, etc. Some suggest that if you use an epidemiologic measure like an odds ratio (odds of commiting suicide if you play D&D over odds of commiting suicide if you do not play), people who play D&D are actually less likely to commit suicide. I believe that is not due to a positive effect of the game itself, but rather of the kind of people who usually play, but after a cursory glance at the numbers it seems true. It seems gamers commit suicide less often than non-gamers. What is the reason for that, it's hard to say, but numbers do not lie. There are probably many confounding variables, but it is easy to conclude that D&D does not increase your likelihood of commiting suicide, or any violent act, for that matter.
Anything else, whether the game is "satanic", whether "witchraft" is evil, is a matter of personal beliefs. It is kind of fun to debate about it, though.
From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Grefter
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posted January 14, 2003 06:32 PM
It is my opinion that most things that have been said here are basicly either opinion or dogma, which either you accept or you do not.
As an avid gamer I do not believe the game is evil (obviously) but I am also a scientist and I follow the behavioral literature closely. People seem to say this or that has been proven scientifically, but they rarely do the research and look at the studies themselves. It just becomes hearsay or anecdotal evidence, which cannot be used to prove a point scientifically. The only thing that has been proven conclusively is that children, when exposed to violence, are more prone to be violent themselves. A convincing argument can be made that kids, who cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is not, should not be exposed to violent games. As a parent, I believe it is my responsability to censor what my daughter (a 2 year old bundle of energy that is the light of my eyes) has access to. I listen to what other people say, but ultimately it is my responsability and not the government's or any other institution.
"People who watch violent shows or listen to negative music are more likely to do something radical."
Actually, no good study has ever shown that and there are many good studies that show that there is no correlation. Citing suicides that have some kind of connection to gaming doesn't really prove anything, even if the connection is real. There are close to 17,000 suicides every year. The number of homicides is around that vicinity also. The vast majority of them have nothing to do with D&D, violent games, music, etc. Some suggest that if you use an epidemiologic measure like an odds ratio (odds of commiting suicide if you play D&D over odds of commiting suicide if you do not play), people who play D&D are actually less likely to commit suicide. I believe that is not due to a positive effect of the game itself, but rather of the kind of people who usually play, but after a cursory glance at the numbers it seems true. It seems gamers commit suicide less often than non-gamers. What is the reason for that, it's hard to say, but numbers do not lie. There are probably many confounding variables, but it is easy to conclude that D&D does not increase your likelihood of commiting suicide, or any violent act, for that matter.
Anything else, whether the game is "satanic", whether "witchraft" is evil, is a matter of personal beliefs. It is kind of fun to debate about it, though.
From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Kuje31
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Member # 88819
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posted January 14, 2003 06:36 PM
This topic really should be closed, it's deeply insulting to pagans, now I recall why I really dislike fundies. And it really has nothing to do with D&D.
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The_Fan
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posted January 14, 2003 06:38 PM
You repeatedly claim that D&D is not uplifting.
Before I came to college and got accepted into a D&D group, I was clinically depressed. I had absolutely no friends. In high school, everyone made it their goal to convince me that I was utterly worthless. To make matters worse, I suffer from Asperger's Syndrome, which is a form of autism, so all attempts to improve my social life failed.
Then I joined a D&D group. My circle of friends increased, and has been steadily increasing due to the people I've met through the game. I've made more friends than I ever thought I would have. Every week we get together for a few hours to play this game, and when I leave I feel better for it. I play an epic hero fighting great evil, triumphing over the forces of darkness. But more importantly than that, I spend time with people who accept me and all my quirks.
You say its not uplifting?
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From: Union - Merchant District | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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posted January 14, 2003 06:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Celebelen Khelekluin:
I don't want to go flaming anyone no matter how insulted myself, and my girlfriend for that matter, are right now. We are both Wicca, and neither evil in any way. Most of these posts seem to imply that I am now evil of evil. Well, guess what. I was raised a Christian. But I have a very open mind. I decided to look for myself instead of being blindly told what to do...and here I am now.
Second, and the thing that REALLY gets me, is how there is a blantant disregard for all religions EXCEPT for Christianity. THAT is why I "left" Christianity. How can you just go off and say that your God is the only "correct" God? Did he give you a note? Is there a sign? Did he just, *gasp*, kill off all those other gods? THINK for a minute with your BRAIN and NOT your faith. What about all the other religions in the world? Can you just say that they're wrong because they don't believe the same as you do? There, you can now turn your faith back on.
Oh well, I said I wasn't going to get anymore angry, but its too late for that. There are reasons why I hate Christianity. Good reasons.
First off, I never EVER said that the people themselves were evil, only the practice. If I were to say that you were evil, I would be hypocritical of my own morals. Second, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Before God came into my life, things were horrible. I won't even get into it. But both I and other people noticed a change for the better within me. That is not religion, it is physical evidence. All I know is, God never lets us down.Sometimes we may not get what we want, or we don't get the answer we want, so we assume He's ignoring us. During trials, at times we feel alone and on the edge of insanity. We ask, "God where are you? How could you just leave me and let me down if you really loved me?" I know exactly how this feels. I have been through
tough things in my life, and I just about wanted to kill myself. I prayed night after night crying myself to sleep, and I thought I had no reply. Things just got worse from there on. But I realized something, God hadn't planned on making my life perfect, He allowed all these horrible things to happen so I would get closer to Him. In my grief, I sought HIM out. It's hard for us as humans to understand this 'brokeness'.
It is a good thing in its own way. We learn to draw apart from worldly desires and seek God's guidance instead. He blessed me with the people around me to help me understand why He would allow all this to happen. I thank the Lord for sending my Christian friends in my youth group. I owe the salvation of my soul to God and all his blessings, cause I may not have been around this long.
Secondly, the reason all the other 'crap', as it has been posed to me, is around is because over the years, some people have modified certain religions to please themselves, a leader of a country, or another god instead of glorifying God. I think religion is a bad word. It categorizes faith. Like I'm a Lutheran, I'm a Catholic, I'm a Presbyterian. Do you get what I mean? I prefer the word 'faith' to describe
my Christianity. I believe in Jesus as my Lord in
savior, I believe God is my father, and I believe the Holy Spirit is like my guidance counselor. They all create one God. The three in one thing is difficult to explain. It's not like God's got split personalities, but it's like different parts of him. For example, humans tend to have as humorous side, a serious side, and an angry side. They all play a different role in our personality, but that doesn't make us more than
one person. Now I'm not out to diss other religions that believe in different things like Buddha and stuff, all I know is that God said 'You shall have no other gods before
me.' It clearly states that in His word, and so that's what I believe.
Finally, people DO disregard Christians. I can't get through a single day without people knocking my faith.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
ssj4sg
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posted January 14, 2003 06:43 PM
Honestly, i think you people are forgetting the Crusades. Were those uplifting? Didn't they promote violence? Which God was this? Was there a little thing called the Inquisition? Of all the Dungeon Masters i've known in my life, none of them thought of such evil things, not even once. Oh yeah, and if I DO go to hell for playing D&D, then at least i'll know a lot of people there, like, most of america.
From: ohio | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Grefter
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Member # 70266
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posted January 14, 2003 06:45 PM
[Almost 80% of the world practices Christianity. Could that many peolple possibly be wrong.[/QB][/QUOTE]
About 2 billion people practice Christianity, 1.3 billion practice Islam, 900 million practice Hinduism, 860 million are secular/agnosthic/atheists, and so on and so forth.
Percentage wise about 33% of the world's population consider themselves Christian.
From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Keldar
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Member # 94912
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posted January 14, 2003 06:48 PM
Normally I ignore topics like this as a huge waste of time.
Christian3_777, since unlike so many others who seek to demonize DnD, you have at least had the respect to come here and seek responses from those involved with the game, I will answer you.
DnD is a game, describing it as the equivilant of a sport for those lacking athletic prowess wouldn't be too unfair. Calling it fantasy writing by comittee wouldn't be to far off either. Personally I just think of it as Cops & Robbers for Big Kids. Like most things it is mostly harmless.
DnD to me, and many of my friends, is our nerdy equivilant to Sunday football. A social occasion, one far more healthy than sitting in front of the TV building up bloodpressure watching someone else loose.
It is not Satanic, nor is it Witchcraft, in the Christian view of Witches gaining power from the devil. It uses demons and other dark characters in the same way the bible does, as antagonists to be defeated. Weather by will, word, or sling stone.
Your references to DnD related crimes also have another commonality, all took place in the 80's! By the rationale you present on your web page, the 80's should also be a cause. Please, I urge you to take the time to read in detail on each of those cases, I believe you will find that in every case the individual had something wrong mentally before DnD entered into thier lives.
Like any group, there are all types associated with DnD. Most fall into the sports equivilant of watching it on TV, some make it to the games. Others are like the goof-balls who paint themselves green and yellow and stand around in 20 degree weather. And alas some are the ones who riot at the soccer game. Considering how many people die directly due to soccer each year, I think Dnd having one death associated with it every year or two isn't bad at all.
If you really want to take a stand against a leading cause of violence look no farther than your evening news. There real death and violence makes its way into your home every night. There are many demons in this world, in the grand scheme of things DnD is, at worst, a very small one.
I don't expect you to ever like DnD, but you have taken a step that shows you are resonable. Don't stop now, find out the real facts for yourself. Really look into those murders, and not just the sensational front page articles. When you finally realize Dnd is basically harmless you can stop waisting your time on it, and take on a real source of evil. Lord knows there are too few doing that.
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From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged | |
thaosyr
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posted January 14, 2003 06:50 PM
and my arguments are lost in cannon fire... oh well
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Doug
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Member # 33803
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posted January 14, 2003 06:51 PM
Well its too late to let this thread die....so on to humor
well clearly the "Fireball" spell is a direct result of satan, who is associated with hell, which is associated with fire.
Did you ever notice there are 11 classes in the Player's Handbook? chapter 6 discusses deities (like GOD and SATAN) and alignments (with an emphasis on the evil alignments). So what does 11-6 = __? FIVE!!!! now ask yourself how many points there are on a pentagram....well well well....coincidence? didnt think so
DnD could really stand for:
"DEVILS AND DEMONS"
Christianity isn't a religion in Greyhawk DnD, an obvious act of satan.
Now! lets talk about ability scores....the best roll you can get is three sixes...that gives you 18, the highest natural roll for abilities. Strange that our players are striving for this single pattern in their dice roll:
"666"
are they trying to create a bell-shaped distribution of 3-18 values.....or are they trying to get you to strive towards satan? The answer is clear
Take a look at your Player's Handbook title cover.....is it just me....or are there HORNS coming out of the word "Player's"??!?!?!
c'mon, we know they're not trying to fill up empty space....they're trying to create the devil!!!!
Lastly, DnD results in a large consumption of caffeinated, carbonated beverages and funguns (wow....did you ever suddenlly have NO clue how to spell those onion flavers crisp rings?) These foods are constructed in HELL! where else can enough dark power be raised to trap gasses in liquids and onions in cheetos!
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PC: we walk down the corridor to the left
Me: you see a large wooden door ahead of you. The door is locked and trapped....damn...I really should seperate flavor text and game text shouldn't I?
PC: I attempt to disarm the trap...
From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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posted January 14, 2003 06:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ephrion:
And majority rule is a dumbass way to go about it anyway. I've always opposed that.
At least we agree on something
But yeah, I was wrong where I got my stats. Here's the official stat in order:
1. Christianity: 2 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist:850million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 6 million
14. Jainism: 4 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
19. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
20. Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
21. Scientology: 600 thousand
22. Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Grefter
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posted January 14, 2003 06:57 PM
Keldar,
Normally I hate "me too" posts but your position is so eloquently exposed that I am forced to say "me too, me too!! that's how I feel!!" in admiration.
From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Doug
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Member # 33803
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posted January 14, 2003 06:58 PM
personally I think christianity was just one of the last scams of religion to come around before people got educated......
only personally....otherwise chrisitanity is good for you phsychologically
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PC: we walk down the corridor to the left
Me: you see a large wooden door ahead of you. The door is locked and trapped....damn...I really should seperate flavor text and game text shouldn't I?
PC: I attempt to disarm the trap...
From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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posted January 14, 2003 07:04 PM
Keldar
I appreciate the fact that you were respectful and just stated your view and facts. So few people do that and instead bash others in the process. When people do state simply thier position, it is often taken the wrong way. Thanks for being a good example for people in the forum.
The people who have to sit and bash me, I have no respect for.
Let me put this clearly for those who haven't understood me yet . I do not hate the people, I dislike evil acts. I don't wish to bash other beliefs. By some D&D players' own admittance, D&D involves evil and witchcraft. So for me, that's good enough. I won't get involved in the game. As for everyone else, do whatever. I've said all I can say to sate my view so far. I can only correct my state. I cannot sit and prove you wrong nor shove my beliefs down your throught, and that is not the intention here.
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Respect isn't given, it's earned.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
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thaosyr
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posted January 14, 2003 07:15 PM
quote:
By some D&D players' own admittance, D&D involves evil and witchcraft.
Your religion is involved in them as well. Against or for, it is still involved...
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Ephrion
Member
Member # 106327
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:18 PM
Christian, it doesn't involve witchcraft, unless you mean spells. Then it involves witchcraft to the point of "Yeah, I use Quickened Haste, Gate in a Solar to whack the evil guys, and Forcecage them for the hell of it."
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Member 0000002 of the Nothing Sucks Foundation!
One of my players cast Magic Missile into the darkness. ^_^
From: the Sylx Tower | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
littlesaltz
Member
Member # 19509
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:28 PM
I used to be really interested in this thread.
I now think, however, that they are pointless. Why?
Some people believe that the Bible is the word of God, and cannot be refuted.
Others think that the Bible is to be examined to find the morals hidden within.
Others believe in a different faith, with a different holy text, and maybe a different God(s) or view of God.
And a good portion don't believe in any deity or religion.
And all of us, myself included, use our beliefs in our arguments.
Wiccan: I don't worship Satan.
Other: Yeah you do, the Bible says so.
How does the Wiccan respond to that? The Other refuses to be challenged, because he/she beliefs that the text he quotes from cannot be challenged, while the Wiccan disagrees with that basic premise.
We can get nowhere on a post like this, not because of flames, but because of close-mindedness, and, more importantly:
No one here will change their minds based on what is in this thread.
And so the same things will get said over and over.
::Looks at what he wrote::
I apologize for being so bitter...I've seen enough of these threads come and go, and I thought they were interesting. I think I was wrong.
Thanks for reading,
Saltz
From: Wynnewood, PA, USA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Solaris
Member
Member # 38237
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
Finally, people DO disregard Christians. I can't get through a single day without people knocking my faith.
That's my favorite thing about Christians. Better than the willful ignorance, and the ability to unswervingly deny reason and common sense: the persecution complex.
I laugh myself silly every time I see a Christian talk about how Christians are persecuted, when they themselves have made persecution a way of life.
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Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist any more.
"Galstaff. You have entered the door to the North. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet dungeon walls."
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Solaris
Member
Member # 38237
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
I won't get involved in the game. As for everyone else, do whatever.
Excellent! Now go away, and leave these boards for those who are involved in the game.
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Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist any more.
"Galstaff. You have entered the door to the North. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet dungeon walls."
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Solaris
Member
Member # 38237
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:38 PM
All too often, Christians go out of their way to come here and start this kind of crap. How long are we going to put up with it?
The code of conduct needs to be modified so as to forbid this kind of thing.
[ January 14, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Solaris ]
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Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist any more.
"Galstaff. You have entered the door to the North. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet dungeon walls."
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
thaosyr
Member
Member # 37321
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:43 PM
now now, he may be a bigot, but he has as much right to be one as you do for telling him to go away. He has broken several CoC rules (posting in the wrong forum just being one) but these are his first posts, let him be. failing that, heres a flamethrower, and the ammo
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Solaris
Member
Member # 38237
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:45 PM
I just had a look at the original poster's web article. It's terrifying to contemplate that there are people out there who are capable of believing so much utterly ridiculous crap.
There are the factual errors that would be obvious to anyone who bothered to do any actual research.
There is the quote from a guy who used D&D as part of Satanic ritual, when the one has nothing to do with the other. A wacko saying that D&D is Satanic doesn't imply that D&D is Satanic.
The Gygax quote is uncited and quite likely bogus, since no such thing is a part of the game. There are no spells to be recited aloud.. All the times I said "I cast 'magic missile'", I never once fired bolts of energy across the table.
My favorite part, though, was this:
quote:
From http://www.chick.com/articles/frpg.asp Therefore, here are just a handful of the tragic deaths reported (as of this writing) to be related to D&D:
Anyone who cites Chick suffers an immediate and complete loss of credibility. But, for the sake of argument, I could counter by asking how many tragic deaths are related to Christianity. I'm sure we could come up with more than those. Most importantly, however, it has been found that D&D players are less likely than members of the general population to commit suicide. So much for that, then.
[ January 14, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Solaris ]
--------------------
Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist any more.
"Galstaff. You have entered the door to the North. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet dungeon walls."
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
thaosyr
Member
Member # 37321
|
posted January 14, 2003 07:48 PM
maybe we should start a "Ban the fundies" foundation eh?
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Remember kids: when in doubt, always kill your parents
From: Florida | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Worrick
Member
Member # 122163
|
posted January 14, 2003 08:01 PM
It's a little known fact, but the Crusades were originally started by D&D fans. It's not their fault really, they were quite high on numerous drungs after a prolonged commune with the Devil and thought they were fighting some kobalds. Now if you'll excuse me I just finished playing a small campaign and have to chain my wife up outside and go have sex with the dog.
Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
elrond_the_halfelven
Member
Member # 34909
|
posted January 14, 2003 08:07 PM
*sigh*...ok, I am a Christian. I am not ashamed of that. Many evils HAVE been done in God's name. It doesn't mean God inspired those evil's. Many (dare I say most?) people who claim to be Christian are woefully ignorant. When a Christian uses incorrect facts (like some of the stuff on christian3_777's site and his percentage of religions) it tends to make people take us less seriously. When someone does something evil they (usually) blame it on something or someone else. Like DnD. Seriously, when someone commits a murder do they say "I'm clearly an evil person" or do they try and find a scapegoat like DnD, or even God (note: im not comparing the two....im just saying that anyone can use anything as an excuse for doing something evil).
I agree with what someone earlier said. Blind faith is stupid. Don't take what the Bible says literally or believe what a minister or pastor or priest says about God without out first finding out the nature of God on your own. The Bible has gone through many translations and people are faliable, but God is not.
I play Dungeons and Dragons..I too have Asperger's Syndrome and it has allowed me to make friends I would otherwise not have been able to make. It also allowed me to practice socialization so that I can make friends outside of the gaming group.
And christian3_777 if you don't want to play it, just watch a game. Then after you see where you were wrong (with the facts...your opinions are yours to have), see if your opinions haven't changed.
--------------------
"I'm not worried about my creativity. I'm the Dungeon Master. I control worlds, universes! Every potion you drink, I mixed! Every magic item you find, I put it there! And right now you're roasting in the hot belly of a platinum dragon! So, why don't you ask yourself where your priorities lie?"
Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Frozen Yakman
Member
Member # 16544
|
posted January 14, 2003 08:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
I want to hear what the players think about D&D. What is it?
I game where you get together with a bunch of your friends and try to crack each other up by assuming other personas.
quote:
Do you believe it is evil?
What is evil about a bunch of geeks drinking a lot of Coke playing advanced cowboys and indians?
quote:
Do you believe it involves witchcraft?
Only if you happen to be a which or one of your players is a witch.
quote:
To you believe it involves Satan?
It's have to actually exist to be involved now wouldn't it. Considering that Satan doesn't exist, then he can't involve himself in it can he.
quote:
What makes it different from other role playing games?
Implementation.
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Frozen Yakman
Designer- Official Planewalker Planescape 3e Conversion
From: Lexington, KY or Atlanta, GA | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Mr. Wilson
Member
Member # 91592
|
posted January 14, 2003 09:06 PM
Edited for needless repetition.
Wizo's why is this thread still open?
[ January 14, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Wilson ]
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Hey Mr. Wiiiiiiilllllsooooon!
Proud DM of BJ's Frag-o-rama
From: Delaware, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Griffin2x
Member
Member # 100110
|
posted January 14, 2003 09:07 PM
Alright this Mexican headcutting is declaired a tie the post has gotten out of hand and no side will agree with the other side is saying. Think of this for a moment, if there is nothing the other side can say that will change your mind or that you are willing to lisen to, you might as well stop posting. It turns from a debate into a pointless argument were no one is happy or satistfied
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"Not all who worship the dark are evil Not all who worship the light are good
Evil done in the name of good is still evil
Good done in the name of evil is still good
Think about that paladin before you judge me for what I am"
Vectra- Human shadow mage 2ed
From: Ohio | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Kevmann
Member
Member # 106090
|
posted January 14, 2003 09:35 PM
quote:
Origional Post from christian3_777
I'm guessing you're probably like 16 or 17. Sry that what I said offended you. But one thing I'd like to say is that creativity can be expressed through art, music, sports, dancing, and games that don't involve seeking to kill other players, steal thier possesions, and trying to make yourself better that others by your level of power.
No offense of course, but that is how I see it.
Ok, Art is good to look at... for about 3 seconds and then you get bored. I suck at art and find it is more boreing to do it then look at it. Music is good to listen to, I like music, but I can not make music, nor do I have the inclanation to try. I hate sports, period. On the next point, picutre many bruses and squashed toes, and a realy bored person. And games, D&D IS a game!
Sure, there are other ways to express creativity, but they are not for me! I like D&D because it is a UNIQUE experiance to play a character in a fantasy setting. The only thing that comes CLOSE is reading and videogames. Books are non-interactive and videogames are so far from actual life that it is silly (Why can't I climb on the table? The desiners should have let me climb on this table)
I am Christian, I like to play D&D, and I'm not going to hell, enoph said.
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"SW33T, L33T LOOT!"
Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AlteredEgo
Member
Member # 70390
|
posted January 14, 2003 10:08 PM
Popular thread it seems...
Of course D&D is "evil." It consumes our thoughts. It gets under our skin and into every corner of our lives (you know when you saw Legolas you were thinking Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Critical hit, etc). It consumes our money. It gives a megacorporation like Hasbro the funds to expand itself. It causes us to ignore things like the real world and instead concentrate on events in a world that exists only in our minds.
But damn is it fun. Fun and educational. Two "hardcore" gamers arguing over an action in the game will research that action from every perspective (including spending days researching the tensile strength of an iron age-style steel sword crafted in Hurgenbjurgen, New Jersey around the turn of the century) looking for the truth of the outcome and the ruling.
D&D hones math skills, social skills, creative thinking, literature skills, and spatial thinking.
So it's addictive. Let's face it, we've all got a demon to feed, and the rest of the world should feel lucky that for us, it's D&D.
(most of the preceeding comments were brought to you by InJest Inc., others by E. Gomaniac, and a few others by Serious. This commercial break brought to you by the Number, bong-o, and the letters....FU)
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Technically, every last aspect of the game is up to DM discretion...personally, I prefer a DM who at least makes an attempt to play by the common rules as written.
"The alliance between Men and Elves is no more...Mr. Anderson."
Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Nadaka
Member
Member # 29823
|
posted January 15, 2003 01:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
quote:
Originally posted by Nadaka:
I would suggest that you do the same. I am "hardcore against" your opinions because I DO have an open mind. I have already considered those opinions, weighed them, and found them lacking merit. That makes me a heretic, and I am proud to take that badge of honor. Did you know that the world heretic was originally defined as someone who has an open mind and who can make thier own decisions?
D&D is no more evil than monopoly. Its a game, a distraction, a form of social entertainment. Without entertainment the human mind stops functioning correctly. Without socialization, the human mind stops functioning correctly. Not only that but it is a game that emphisises creativity and thinking. D&D is a GOOD influence on people.
I'm guessing you're probably like 16 or 17. Sry that what I said offended you. But one thing I'd like to say is that creativity can be expressed through art, music, sports, dancing, and games that don't involve seeking to kill other players, steal thier possesions, and trying to make yourself better that others by your level of power.
No offense of course, but that is how I see it.[/QB]
Actually I am 23, a college graduate, working full time and continuing my education. I have extensively studied sociology, history, philosophy, theology and much more that is not really relevant.
Humans are agressive territorial creatures. It is in our nature to hunt and kill for food and dominance (well, males anyway. The territorial dynamic is expressed differently among females). In a modern society that does not promote such activities, we need a way to release pent up agression and energy. Some people play sports for this release. Some can not for some reason. Without an release of agression, it builds up, leading to all kinds of anti-social and potentially dangerous activities or disorders.
But I really do not feel like talking about abnormal psych right now. Suffice it to say, individuals that express thier emotions and creative outlets in a social environment rather than suppressing and repressing those aspects of his personality lives a much healthier life both mentally and physically.
You have been quite civil, even if a bit misinformed. I have found it quite refreshing to bump into a religious person that doesn't try to stone people for being different.
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I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.
From: Picayune, Mississippi | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Oberoni
Member
Member # 71124
|
posted January 15, 2003 01:51 AM
Whew, this thread is big.
I'm going to ignore the thoughtless anti-Christian rants thus far. I find the blanket statement "Christians are ignorant and close-minded," or any of its permutations, to be ironic. Not in the delightful sense, but in the "that's stupid" sense.
Now, on to Mel's query.
Mel, I am Christian (probably not as strong as I should be, though) and I play D&D. I really like it.
To me, D&D is a fun release. It is a time to get together with my friends and have fun.
Now, Mel, I was clicking some of the links in your signature. When you check out Homestar Runner, you're doing it because it's fun. When you post on a message board, you're doing it because it's fun. When you design and maintain a secular website, you're doing it because it's fun.
Is it, strictly speaking, uplifting? Probably not. You're definitely not praising God or anything.
But, you know what? I don't think God minds. I don't think God put you or any of us on this earth to sing His praises every waking hour. I would actually be frightened of a God who would grant me free will, and then demand I do nothing but praise Him--thankfully our God is not that God.
While He likes us to do uplifting things to remain spiritually strong and connected to Him, I think He wants us to engage in other activities as well. After all, we have all of eternity to praise Him in heaven, but life--life should be its own experience.
D&D falls into that category of things we do because they're fun. Can it lead to bad things? Of course--virtually anything at all can. All things in moderation, the saying goes, and it applies to D&D just as well as everything else.
I think Keldar and some others have said just about anything else I could think to add at the moment, so I will leave you with this--D&D, as in most things on Earth, is no more good or evil than you make it to be.
--------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D&D is fun. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Links: ###Useful Magic Links### / The Defenders of the Faith FAQ / Homestar Runner
From: Avaloni--err, Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Oberoni
Member
Member # 71124
|
posted January 15, 2003 01:53 AM
I will also take this chance to tell you that this link,
http://verticalaim.tripod.com/whereareyougoing/
is broken.
Considering that it's the link that tells a reader about heaven, you might want to fix it.
From: Avaloni--err, Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Galahad_Knight
Member
Member # 40325
|
posted January 15, 2003 02:01 AM
Well, I maybas well weigh in...
D&D is entirely what you MAKE it.
My biggest problem with people whoio think D&D is evil is that they've never actually *READ* the books, at least not past a cursury glance through the 'demons' dection of the monster manual and the 'spells' section of the PHB.
If you actually read the books you'll see that your game does NOT have to involce killing, viloence, evil spirits or other disturbing things. You could easily design an adventure where the players solve peoblems through skill and wit rather than combat and spells. But the system is laid out so that you *CAN* play it for the sword and sorcery aspect. Read the section on experience points...you get experience points for resolving the encounter. If you are attacked and you talk your way out of it or knock them out or simply chase them off, you are victorious and your character gains experience. You don;t have to go oin a killing spree.
Another important thing to note is that even in sessions that involve violence and magic and whatnot, the players are almost always playing GOOD guys...they're playing priests, holy crusaders, good-hearted rogues, warriors of justice, wize wizards who use their powers for the greater good, etc. If a character goesd on na killing spree iot's because he's killing *evil* creatures. If demons and evil spirits are involved then it is almost always in the role of the villian, who the players try to defeat...How could a game that hs founded on the concept of defeating evil be evil in and of itself?
Now...as to images of violence, carnage and such leaving imprints on the mind...that much could very well be true...
Have you ever read the old testiment? I have...there's lots and lots of good stuff in there. I seem to recall some particularly violent and bloody parts where god tells people to murder women and children, for example. (Trust me, it's in there.)
I've got to say...none of my D&D characters ever did anything like that...
Read the bible cover to cover...it is one bloody and violent story. Name a crime and it's detailed on that book, often graphically detailed.
Now...here's the catch. Before you get on the offensive, defensive or any other 'fensive' and start telling me about taking things out of context or not knowing anything about the source...stop and think about your own views of *this* set of books and what you *really* know about them.
My point is not that god is evil or that I'm anti-christian...my point is that we have free will (something God made a special point of blessing us with)...we draw our own conclusions. Everything is what we make of it.
I could read the bible, pull out an highlight every instance of violence, sexuality and such and start railing about it being a handbook of evil...that's not what it is, but I could do it.
Likewise, I could open the same book, pull out and hihglight every bit of morality, goodness and love and say that the bible is all about those things...It's not *all* about those things either...it's about humanity and its struggles with itself and with the unknown. It shows us good things and bad and gives us a choice of paths to walk down. The important thing is that it gives us *all* a choice in how to live our *real* lives. If you want to live a good life then it's more than encouraged and it's all outlined in there. If you want to live a life of evil, it's not the original intent of the piece but there's more than enough information on how to do it within those pages.
Now...think about D&D in the same way I just laid out.
You could pull out and highlight the demons, the spells, the evil alignments, the bloody combat...and you could rail about it being evil.
You can also pull out all the paladins, clerics, the acts of divine power, the celestial hosts and the systems detailing non-violent encounters and say it's all about the good stuff.
The fact is it's not about any of that. It's about people and their conflicts with eachother and the unknown. The books lay out good and they lay out evil and they give your *fictional* character a choice of what path he walks in his *imaginary* life. If you want to play a good guy, then you are more than encouraged. If you want to play a bad guy then the rules are there, but it's not what the original intent was.
It's all what we make of it, my friends. If you are a bad person, you could pick up the adventures of Whinney The Poo and come up with the basis for your next crime spree. If you're a good person you can pick the books up and see them for what they are, a bunch of funny stories about a honey-loving bear...if you;re *really* good you can even pick ot the moral of the nstory and maybe live your life a little better for it.
Yes, I won't deny that maybe some rare people who play D&D have breakdowns and do bad things...but I'll promise you that there are *far* more cerial killers, disturbed psychopaths, family anihilators and hate groups who base their exploits off the bible than there are psychos who base their exploits off of RPGs in general, let alone D&D.
That doesn't mean that the bible is bad...it means that a bad person read it and didn't understand it.
You said you have a freind who plays...Bowwor his books sometime and read them, cover to cover, every little bit. Read them, understand them and then tell me what *YOU* think of them. If you still think they're evil or bad then I can promise that you missed something.
For the record: My favorite cousin is a baptist minister in a small town in Wisconsin...and he has played D&D all his life. He;s one of the best, most spiritual, good-hearted people I know. He even runs a game of D&D for the local youth as a way of keeping them out of trouble after school.
My dad is an ordained minister, and *the* most spiritual, intellectual and good-hearted person I've ever met...he's played D&D since it was invented...he used it when by brother and I were children to teach us morals...as well as invaluable problem-solving, creative-writing and mathematical skills.
My little brother is an ordained minister. He may be annoying, but he is also an intelligent, spiritual and good-hearted person...he's played D&D since he could read.
I am, by all accounts, a funny, even-tempered, open-minded person who has never commited a serious crime (Ok, I shoplifted candy once when I was a kid...but I felt so sick about it that I threw up...). I'm not as spiritual as the rest of my family, but I'm still, what I would consider to be a good man...I've played D&D since I could read.
I don't know...it's late and I tend to ramble...Maybe I have too much faith in human beings being able to distinguish fantasy from reality...buit isn't faith in your fellow man almost as important to christianity as faith in god is? I don't know...maybe I misread that part...
--------------------
-=================]xxxxo Sir Galahad oxxxx[=================-
"And if I claim to be a Wiseman, it surely means that I don't know" --Kansas
"Eagles may Soar, but Weasels don't get Sucked into Jet Engines!" --Unknown
Self-Proclaimed Founder and Member 0000001 of the "Long Poster's Guild"
Member 1498347 of the 'make up your own club' bandwagon
Keeper of the Unofficial Druid FAQ
Posts: 1000+
From: Tacoma, WA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Galahad_Knight
Member
Member # 40325
|
posted January 15, 2003 02:05 AM
Well, I maybas well weigh in...
D&D is entirely what you MAKE it.
My biggest problem with people whoio think D&D is evil is that they've never actually *READ* the books, at least not past a cursury glance through the 'demons' dection of the monster manual and the 'spells' section of the PHB.
If you actually read the books you'll see that your game does NOT have to involce killing, viloence, evil spirits or other disturbing things. You could easily design an adventure where the players solve peoblems through skill and wit rather than combat and spells. But the system is laid out so that you *CAN* play it for the sword and sorcery aspect. Read the section on experience points...you get experience points for resolving the encounter. If you are attacked and you talk your way out of it or knock them out or simply chase them off, you are victorious and your character gains experience. You don;t have to go oin a killing spree.
Another important thing to note is that even in sessions that involve violence and magic and whatnot, the players are almost always playing GOOD guys...they're playing priests, holy crusaders, good-hearted rogues, warriors of justice, wize wizards who use their powers for the greater good, etc. If a character goesd on na killing spree iot's because he's killing *evil* creatures. If demons and evil spirits are involved then it is almost always in the role of the villian, who the players try to defeat...How could a game that hs founded on the concept of defeating evil be evil in and of itself?
Now...as to images of violence, carnage and such leaving imprints on the mind...that much could very well be true...
Have you ever read the old testiment? I have...there's lots and lots of good stuff in there. I seem to recall some particularly violent and bloody parts where god tells people to murder women and children, for example. (Trust me, it's in there.)
I've got to say...none of my D&D characters ever did anything like that...
Read the bible cover to cover...it is one bloody and violent story. Name a crime and it's detailed on that book, often graphically detailed.
Now...here's the catch. Before you get on the offensive, defensive or any other 'fensive' and start telling me about taking things out of context or not knowing anything about the source...stop and think about your own views of *this* set of books and what you *really* know about them.
My point is not that god is evil or that I'm anti-christian...my point is that we have free will (something God made a special point of blessing us with)...we draw our own conclusions. Everything is what we make of it.
I could read the bible, pull out an highlight every instance of violence, sexuality and such and start railing about it being a handbook of evil...that's not what it is, but I could do it.
Likewise, I could open the same book, pull out and hihglight every bit of morality, goodness and love and say that the bible is all about those things...It's not *all* about those things either...it's about humanity and its struggles with itself and with the unknown. It shows us good things and bad and gives us a choice of paths to walk down. The important thing is that it gives us *all* a choice in how to live our *real* lives. If you want to live a good life then it's more than encouraged and it's all outlined in there. If you want to live a life of evil, it's not the original intent of the piece but there's more than enough information on how to do it within those pages.
Now...think about D&D in the same way I just laid out.
You could pull out and highlight the demons, the spells, the evil alignments, the bloody combat...and you could rail about it being evil.
You can also pull out all the paladins, clerics, the acts of divine power, the celestial hosts and the systems detailing non-violent encounters and say it's all about the good stuff.
The fact is it's not about any of that. It's about people and their conflicts with eachother and the unknown. The books lay out good and they lay out evil and they give your *fictional* character a choice of what path he walks in his *imaginary* life. If you want to play a good guy, then you are more than encouraged. If you want to play a bad guy then the rules are there, but it's not what the original intent was.
It's all what we make of it, my friends. If you are a bad person, you could pick up the adventures of Whinney The Poo and come up with the basis for your next crime spree. If you're a good person you can pick the books up and see them for what they are, a bunch of funny stories about a honey-loving bear...if you;re *really* good you can even pick ot the moral of the nstory and maybe live your life a little better for it.
Yes, I won't deny that maybe some rare people who play D&D have breakdowns and do bad things...but I'll promise you that there are *far* more cerial killers, disturbed psychopaths, family anihilators and hate groups who base their exploits off the bible than there are psychos who base their exploits off of RPGs in general, let alone D&D.
That doesn't mean that the bible is bad...it means that a bad person read it and didn't understand it.
You said you have a freind who plays...Bowwor his books sometime and read them, cover to cover, every little bit. Read them, understand them and then tell me what *YOU* think of them. If you still think they're evil or bad then I can promise that you missed something.
For the record: My favorite cousin is a baptist minister in a small town in Wisconsin...and he has played D&D all his life. He;s one of the best, most spiritual, good-hearted people I know. He even runs a game of D&D for the local youth as a way of keeping them out of trouble after school.
My dad is an ordained minister, and *the* most spiritual, intellectual and good-hearted person I've ever met...he's played D&D since it was invented...he used it when by brother and I were children to teach us morals...as well as invaluable problem-solving, creative-writing and mathematical skills.
My little brother is an ordained minister. He may be annoying, but he is also an intelligent, spiritual and good-hearted person...he's played D&D since he could read.
I am, by all accounts, a funny, even-tempered, open-minded person who has never commited a serious crime (Ok, I shoplifted candy once when I was a kid...but I felt so sick about it that I threw up...). I'm not as spiritual as the rest of my family, but I'm still, what I would consider to be a good man...I've played D&D since I could read.
I don't know...it's late and I tend to ramble...Maybe I have too much faith in human beings being able to distinguish fantasy from reality...buit isn't faith in your fellow man almost as important to christianity as faith in god is? I don't know...maybe I misread that part...
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From: Tacoma, WA | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Silverthrone
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posted January 15, 2003 02:37 AM
I am not going to wade through this morass of anti religious drivel, but I will chime in on the issue.
I am a Christian. I firmly believe that Christ came, shed his blood, and died for my sins.
That is my faith, that is my belief, and it is not something that any right to ridicule me for any more than any other attribute (Skin color, hair color, sex, height, or weight.). Doing so is nothing more or less than plain out mocking or name calling. It's inherently childish and not at all a display of sophistication or elightenment.
I did not reach my descsion simply because others tomd me too, or because of what a book said. It was a deep and meaningful descsion made by me after much thought and contemplation. I agree with others that blind faith is dangerous, and it leads to a great many of the crimes commited in the world.
However, that does not make the religion itself bad, simply because some hide behind it and use it as a sheild for their own personal agendas.
There are extremsits in everything, and not a small share of nuts in the world. However, judging an entire culture or people based on the actions of a few, or even of a large majority is not fair, for that condems everyone, not just the guilty.
I for one do not believe in organized religion for those very reasons, as it puts far to many under the control of far to few and fallable people who have the means to manipulate those people to further whoever is in charge's own agendas. However, that does not make all those people bad, only the ones who are using them.
Being a Christian does not mean I automatically hate everyone who isn;t either. I've had friends who were athiests and Wiccans, and we got along because we all respected each other's beliefs, even though we disagreed.
I digress.
No, RPGS are not evil. They are games. The magic is not real, if it was, role players would be ruling the world by now. Your not going to to cast a magic spell from D&D anymore than you are going to get a Veriech fighter from the Macross RPG.
It is simply a game and it has unfortunately been a scapegoat in the past, but there is nothing evil about it. It saddens me to see others misguided into blaming a game (And to a further extent.) movies and video games for their own lack of morals or ability to instill morality or at least good judgement in their children. It takes a truly craven person to not face up to their own inadequices or shortcomings, and blaming a piece of cardboard is pathetic.
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From: Georgia | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Crom
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posted January 15, 2003 02:56 AM
Stop putting D&D in the firing line of some attempt to search out evil in everything we do in life. Its a game, accept it.
As far as religion goes, you can believe in whatever you damn well wanna believe in. Don't break the law while practising that religion and I don't have a problem with it.
Finally as far as the notion of D&D being evil goes, its utter rubbish. If you have an evil mind then chances are you're going to play D&D in an evil fashion. But not that many people are evil of mind. D&D is fun and a creative outlet, an escape. Lets not presume that there are any witches to be hunted here.
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From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Roxlimn
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posted January 15, 2003 04:05 AM
Mel:
I am a Christian as well, and I play D&D.
"What is D&D?"
Well, it's a roleplaying game. It's a game in which you can assume the role (not "become") of your chosen character and try to act out what he oe she would do in a situation that is created by the cooperative imaginations of your group. It's a pasttime.
"Is it evil?"
In this case "evil" means "not of God" or "not for God". It's hard to say whether D&D is or is not evil in the same way that it's hard to say whether water or Coke or philosophy and the sciences are evil or not. Evil influences exist in the world, and they can use role playing games to get to you, but that is hardly unique. Evil influences can use anything to get to you. You can use roleplaying games in uplifting and good ways - to teach morals, to encourage socializing and develop social skills, to encourage moral thinking, and to develop math skills, but you can also use it for bad things.
The D&D system for adjudicating violence is detailed because it was based off of a war simulation. You can argue whether that's evil or not, but since D&D has already grown out of such beginnings, it's hard to relate the two in this instance. The detail to which a system devotes more time is not indicative of where such time would be spent. In any case, violence is not proscribed by the Bible according to some interpretations of it by people who call themselves Christians.
What denomination did you say you were?
"Does D&D involve witchcraft or magic?"
Yes and no. D&D is based off of the works of authors who specialize in fantasy literature. While the works of Tolkien are definitely influential, the works of people such as C.S. Lewis are not less so.
In the Narnia series of books that Lewis wrote, magic exists and exists in plentiful amounts. Magic in D&D is much the same. D&D players do not invoke spirits and they do not call aloud spells. You can, if you want to, but that's not related to D&D at all.
Magic in D&D is more like modern technology. You turn on a fan and wind comes from it. You don't understand how it works, and you can't do what it does, but you use it in your everyday life.
In some ways, however, D&D has many instances that are derived from christian traditions. For the devout christian, the D&D system offers ways to teach others the truths of the world without appearing preachy or "hard sell".
Clerics in D&D are heavily derived from the Knights Templars and Knights Hospitallers of the medieval period - Orders of Christian knights who used weapons and occasionally the point of a sword or mace to do a world of good. You DON'T have to use clerics in this fashion if you do not believe that that is uplifting.
Mages and wizards themselves call on a vaguely described force to power their spells. For the most part, this remains undescribed. If you're playing a mage in a game and you don't want to posit demonic derivations (if you want heroic PCs to use these classes), you can always specify a nonpartisan created mystical force (similar to the forces which shape our own universe) or you can simply say that all mystical forces commanded by heroes are derived from God.
"Why isn't God detailed?"
It is not for Hasbro to teach us about the word of God or to interpret His Will. Only the Vicar of Christ can speak with such authority, and only the Church who can officially maintain such a function. Hasbro is only being cautious in true faithful fashion. Instead of providing their own views on what God says and what He doesn't say, they simply provide a set pantheon with very general and vaguely defined gods and their antitheses. They use pantheons because it is a dead religious system and they are unlikely to cause conflict and needless violence by doing so.
As a tool, these pantheons are useful in portraying fantasy milieus. I, myself, would have a difficult time portraying the Will of God in many theoretical situations in a normal campaign. That would hit to close to playing God to be very comfortable. Be wary of being a false shepherd, I always say.
At the same time, completely removing religion from the game removes it from the players' minds and deadens moral thought.
Far from being Satanic, I believe that Hasbro went out of its way to avoid preaching false values and offending the Church in the way it has created its version of reality.
C.S. Lewis himself wouldn't venture to say what God would say in the situations in his books, though he hints at it in a fashion.
The definition of the "good" alignment in the PHB is about as noncommittal as you can get in terms of morality. In some ways it agrees with christian doctrine, and in some ways it does not. Particularly, since christians define "good" as "the Will of God", it's difficult to say so in a reality in which the authors took pains not to play His role.
quote:
If visited continually, it becomes an addiction. Children who grow up in violent homes later on express themselves with anger and vilolence. People who watch violent shows or listen to negative music are more likely to do something radical. I know from experience that these things have an effect on our minds and emotions. Likewise, even a role playing game involving evil sprits can become so real in one's mind, they begin to live out the game in everyday life. It is inevitable. Many will argue that there is no 'brain washing or mind contol' involved in the game since they don't believe in Satan. However, you cannot argue with the fact that there is both good and evil in this world, and whatever side you give into takes control.
True. D&D can be used to create evil thoughts in as much as it is a morally unaligned thing. A piece of paper can contain good or evil writing, after all. It can be used to foster good in the same way.
Re: your promotion of Jack Chick and his tracts
Please refrain from believing in Jack Chick and in behaving in that fashion. It is not uplifting and definitely un-christian. It is not christian to persecute people. While you may denounce their acts of evil, you musn't denounce them. Christ himself did not judge the adulterous woman. Neither is it for us to judge.
Judgement brings intolerance, which breeds hate. Please do not fall into the trap that so many christians have fallen into. Do not return to that site or listen to people who tell you to persecute others. If anything, it is that which breeds hate that is against the Will of God.
Re: the "crimes"
These are what you call a case series, the most uninformed and biased method of deriving a conclusion. In fact, you CAN'T derive an association by using a case series. The likelihood of committing an alpha error (saying a thing is true when when it is not) is far too great.
Since a separate more authoritative study already confirms that D&D gamers are less likely to commit suicide for whatever reason, continuing to cite these anomalous instances and propagating the fallacy is nothing but the worst sort of lie, and it's a lie as black as anything I can think of.
Please save yourself. Play D&D or not; there are many ways to follow Christ. But do not return to Jack Chick. He is not Christ.
"Does it involve Satan?"
The world involves Satan. D&D involves Satan to the extent that it is a game about morality. It a game in which people play heroes out to do good deeds to fight the evil in the world. I believe that only God in heaven is exempt from Satan's influence.
"What makes it different from other roleplaying games?"
It is the most popular. I can't really think of other specific distinctions.
It is good that you are involved in faith, and in matters that uplift your faith. Please continue to do so. Follow the Lord and live in righteousness. I'll see you around, or in any case, hope to see you in His embrace eventually.
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Resident Ass and honey-tongued snake
From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Rorshac
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Member # 17419
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posted January 15, 2003 04:43 AM
Answering the orignial question this time, instead of foolishly being bated:
D&D is a game, a form of entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less.
It has no links with Satanism or Witchcraft, except those that are manufactured by people who find it easier to attack something than to understand it. Or those who are looking for a convenient minority to use as a scapegoat on which to hang the deficiencies of society.
Yes, from a purely religious point of view, it would probably be a better use of our time to spend it in prayer and community works - but the same can be said of ANY form of pure entertainment, including sitting at home watching television, even if the subject matter pertains to your faith.
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"The only way to defeat me is with a swimming pool full of suger-free Angel Delight, and thats the one thing you don't have!"
From: A large rock in the middle of the Irish Sea. | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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Member # 122232
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posted January 15, 2003 04:59 AM
Ok, for those who must sit there and PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never said Witches believe in Satan, because I know the majority do not. As for things on my web page, I have sufficient sources both Christian and secular. Thirdly, I do not appreciate those who want me kicked out for a simple question. I have as much right to be here as you. Fourth, assuming you know everything about what Christians believe is as bad as if I were to assume I knew everything about D&D. Come on people. If you're going to sit and bash me, at least have the decentsy to practice what you preach. ![[Mad]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/mad.gif)
This whole thing has gotten so out of hand. I'm going to request that passing Wiz admins. lock this thread.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Roxlimn
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posted January 15, 2003 05:08 AM
christian3_777:
Temperance please. People are actually responding to the question in well-thought out responses. You owe it to them to discuss their ideas. If they failed to grasp a concept or are mistaken, is it not for you to gently correct them or inform them of their error?
Posting a thread on this site that encourages people to think about their faith in order to find the Way is a seemly and christian thing to do, albeit probably not possible for a lot of people. I applaud that you were able to generate this much response. Please do not falter now.
Above all, restrain your anger. It is a message board. You can always return to reply when you have returned to thoughts of following His Will. As an advertised member of the christian faith, your actions reflect on all of us. Please don't shame us in this way.
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Resident Ass and honey-tongued snake
From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
christian3_777
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posted January 15, 2003 05:08 AM
Ah yes, one last thing. Apparently, those locked on thier beliefs such as me won't back down, so this whole debate is pointless. It was never supposed to be one in the first place until people labled me and struck me down for what I am. That is really not fair. All I did was ask what D&D was and what it involved.
I guess we find out who is right in the end. For those who are, yay. For those who aren't, the right ones can say I'm sorry or I told you so, what ever. If people don't take things at face value, to bad for them.
This whole thing has gotten stupid.
Pardon me for asking what D&D was. I opened a bad can of words. Now, if I was an atheist and I asked what it was, no one would have attacked me would they? Probably not.
Anyway, sorry for being sharp tones, but I've had enough.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Roxlimn
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posted January 15, 2003 05:15 AM
*sigh*
Patience and endurance are virtues. It is sad for you to abandon them so quickly.
A lot of people DID answer your question to the best of their ability. Ignore every post that you don't care for, if you must, and continue your discourse with those that posted in good faith. The blind cannot see, after all.
quote:
Pardon me for asking what D&D was. I opened a bad can of words. Now, if I was an atheist and I asked what it was, no one would have attacked me would they? Probably not.
For shame. Hate seems to flow from every word. Endure your attacks without complaint, and the Heavenly Father will reward you. Have you not heard of this?
If you cannot endure, then go in peace and do not return to a place which causes you to hate. If your hand causes you to sin, will you not cut it off? Message boards are must easier than that to ignore.
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Resident Ass and honey-tongued snake
From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Xeviat-DM
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Member # 60438
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posted January 15, 2003 05:19 AM
Alright, I read all the way through the third page, when Christian3_777's hypocrasy made me not wish to read much further. I will ask, is he/she still reading and posting on this thread? Either way, I'll share my opinions:
First off, I really wish I had been struck with this idea a year ago; I would have found much more information and probably a good interview or two for my English term paper. My term paper was about the Fantasy genra, both in literature, movies, and games. The largest focus of the paper was on the D&D game, which I have been DMing a campaign in for the last year and a half.
By the sources I found, I had decided that the debate was over, and while there were scars left over from the incidents of the 80's, opinions weren't on fire anymore.
Boy was I wrong (and I got an A for that paper, shame on me). Now onto my opinions ...
Christian3_777, for your information, I am 19 years old, and I graduated in 2001. I have been raised on christianity and the bible for as long as I can remember. I believe in heaven, I don't believe in hell. I currently do not go to church, the last church I went to was a born again christian church, because I didn't feel welcome by the often one sided views of the pastures and parishoners (spelling?). I am also deeply troubled by your language (not your vocabulary); you openly stated for others to keep an open mind, but you yourself remain closed-minded.
Let me explain (even if you're not reading anymore, I think my words may open some eyes and ears). First, you come here and ask a touchy question. Second, you read the answers to said touchy question. Third, you openly disagree with every answer stated. Fourth, you subtly tell everyone who's reading this thread what your answers to said questions are. Fifth, you show that you believe that your answers are correct, and that we are all wrong for our opinions/beliefs/answers.
To answer your original questions, as to stay on topic (I should have posted this first, but since this isn't going to be a graded essay I think I can slouch in my organization):
- What is DnD?[b] Dungeons and Dragons is a game that was created in the late 70's (I believe, my facts may be off). That is an answer, yes? Ok, since that probably isn't the level of detail you were looking for, I'll continue. Dungeons and Dragons is a role playing game where you, the player, create a character to act and interact in a world created by, and monitored by, a dungeon master (another player). It is heavily based around combat, but that is because the game evolved from a war senario game.
- [b]Do I believe it is evil? I most certainly do not. I believe (hey, here's an idea, I'll stick to I believe statements, then no one can say I'm lying ... well they could, but they'd have no suport) evil is the act of doing destructive things. By no way does the dungeons and dragons game make me destructive. On a similar note, the hard rock music I listen to never drives me to destructive acts, even though a few of them are about very destructive things.
- Do I believe it involves witchcraft? By what definition? In the world that I have created, there is magic; infact, magic is a big thing in my fictional world (note the word fictional, I'd bold it but that would be annoying). Wizards and Elementalists study the science of magic, because the world has little technology; would you say that high school students are witches for learning how to cause chemical reactions in chemistry class? Clerics the other divine characters are gifted their magic from a higher being; was Moses a witch for appearing to be doing the "magical" things he did? From what I know about witchcraft (I do not believe in their faith myself, it is a religion you know, but I would be a hypocrit if I said they were satan worshipers, as I am sure many Muslims could call me), the subtle magic that they claim/are able to create involves practises and actions that are nothing like the magic within dungeons and dragons. Now you could design a system of magic for d&d that revolves around witchcraft, but I think the good people at Wizards of the Coast were careful to not include any real world magical practices.
- Do I believe it is Satanic? Hmmm ... now this is a hard part. The simple answer is "no", the complicated answer is "define satanic." If satanic is defined as worshiping satan, then the answer is most certainly no. If satanic is defined as any time you do not spend bowing and worshiping God (the christain/jewish God, not any other god), then I guess it could be called that. Then again, I could call you a murderer, if the definition of murder was breathing. Give me a clear definition of satanic, and then I'll answer you. (If you already gave one, then email it to me).
Ok, I believe I'm done with that. Anyone who's here for the answers to the question, you may move to a different post now. I'm going to rant.
[rant]RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...[/rant] Wow, I lost my steam. Maybe I'll come back and post again, if this thread is still alive.
Long live theology!!!
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From: Southern California, USA | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
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Fenian
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Member # 49010
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posted January 15, 2003 05:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
As you say D&D is just a game. If you can't easily drop it, something is wrong.
That's true. Anything can be an addiction. A game as much as a drug. Hey, I'll admit it. I'm addicted to pop. But if it came to the point where it was a matter of life, death, and suffering, I'd get rid of it. I'm not saying D&D comes to this point for everyone, but for some people it does.
The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in 1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders, was an avid D&D player.51
D&D player (14 years old) commits suicide by hanging, 1979, name withheld by parents' request.
D&D player (17 years old) Michael Dempsey, Lynnwood, WA. suicide by gunshot wound to the head, 5/19/81. Witnesses saw him trying to summon up D&D demons just minutes before his death.
D&D player (age not mentioned) Steve Loyacano, Castle Rock, CO., suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning, 10/14/82. Police report satanic writings and a suicide note liked the death to D&D.
<snip
Hmmm this is from http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,873658,00.html:
quote:
Child abuse 'involved 1,200 American priests'
Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Monday January 13, 2003
The Guardian
Sexual abuse by Roman Catholic priests in the United States is even more common than was initially believed, according to a new investigation.
At least 1,200 priests are believed to have been involved in abuse, which took place in almost every diocese in the country.
More than 4,000 children have been victims of abuse by priests that stretches back to the 1930s, according to the survey carried out by the New York Times and published this weekend.
About 80% of the victims were male and 1.8% of all priests ordained in the last 50 years have been accused of committing abuse.
"This has been going on for decades, probably centuries," said Richard O'Connor, a former Dominican priest who said he was raped by three priests in New York in 1940, when he was 10. "It's just that all of a sudden they got caught." <snip>
Now who is satanic again? I'm sure a healthy number of prisioners in prison are good christians too.
Edit: Since this post has shocked Roxlimn (and thus has probably shocked others) who is someone I do in fact respect. I feel I need to explain the above a little more...simply just because some members of a group do bad things does not mean there is a correlation between the bad thing and the group they belonged too. I am not really saying christianity is satanic becuase 1200 priest did -very- bad things, that would be a logical fallacy. As it is so to claim that D&D is satanic because 20 odd disturbed people who happened to be gamers commited suicide, murder and so forth.
[ January 15, 2003, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Fenian ]
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Fenian
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From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Master RikT
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posted January 15, 2003 05:38 AM
For me D&D is just the best game ever created. I think it's because of the possibilities. I have been looking for a GOOD computer 'rpg', and finally I found Baldur's Gate, but I found the possibilities disappointing (it's just fighting and talking multiple-choice, the riddles in Baldur's gate 2 are too easy because it's multiple choice), and I read that Baldur's Gate was based on D&D, so I downloaded the Caves of Shadow. If I'm not at school, or doing something at school, most of the time I'm preparing the next d&d session.
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The only thing constant in the world is change
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From: da Netherlands | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Roxlimn
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Member # 18003
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posted January 15, 2003 05:38 AM
Fenian!
For shame! If this topic continues to generate such hateful responses, it should be locked. Your post contributes nothing to the questions the initial poster posed, and is inflammatory to a major real world religion. Quite aside from being off topic.
If the above post can be deleted to save the thread, I kindly request that it be done so.
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Resident Ass and honey-tongued snake
From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Kevmann
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Member # 106090
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posted January 15, 2003 05:39 AM
quote:
Origonal Quote by Oberoni
But, you know what? I don't think God minds. I don't think God put you or any of us on this earth to sing His praises every waking hour. I would actually be frightened of a God who would grant me free will, and then demand I do nothing but praise Him--thankfully our God is not that God.
While He likes us to do uplifting things to remain spiritually strong and connected to Him, I think He wants us to engage in other activities as well. After all, we have all of eternity to praise Him in heaven, but life--life should be its own experience.
Well said man, well said!
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Fenian
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posted January 15, 2003 05:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
First off, I never EVER said that the people themselves were evil, only the practice. If I were to say that you were evil, I would be hypocritical of my own morals. Second, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Before God came into my life, things were horrible. I won't even get into it. But both I and other people noticed a change for the better within me. That is not religion, it is physical evidence. All I know is, God never lets us down.Sometimes we may not get what we want, or we don't get the answer we want, so we assume He's ignoring us. During trials, at times we feel alone and on the edge of insanity. We ask, "God where are you? How could you just leave me and let me down if you really loved me?" I know exactly how this feels. I have been through
tough things in my life, and I just about wanted to kill myself. I prayed night after night crying myself to sleep, and I thought I had no reply. Things just got worse from there on. But I realized something, God hadn't planned on making my life perfect, He allowed all these horrible things to happen so I would get closer to Him. In my grief, I sought HIM out. It's hard for us as humans to understand this 'brokeness'.
It is a good thing in its own way. We learn to draw apart from worldly desires and seek God's guidance instead. He blessed me with the people around me to help me understand why He would allow all this to happen. I thank the Lord for sending my Christian friends in my youth group. I owe the salvation of my soul to God and all his blessings, cause I may not have been around this long.
So why exactly do you have to go through awful things to get closer to god? I means hes all-powerful right? He could have us all living in paradise right? And since hes all powerful he could make it so we never stray from his word,right? And since hes also all-knowing he knows way way in advance how things are gonna turn out, hes gonna know who is a sinner and a saint...so why play games with us?
quote:
Secondly, the reason all the other 'crap', as it has been posed to me, is around is because over the years, some people have modified certain religions to please themselves, a leader of a country, or another god instead of glorifying God. I think religion is a bad word. It categorizes faith. Like I'm a Lutheran, I'm a Catholic, I'm a Presbyterian. Do you get what I mean? I prefer the word 'faith' to describe
my Christianity.
Ahhhh...but how do you know that -you- have got it right?
quote:
Now I'm not out to diss other religions that believe in different things like Buddha and stuff, all I know is that God said 'You shall have no other gods before
me.' It clearly states that in His word, and so that's what I believe.
Yeah and thats because Yaweh is in competition. Note He doesn't say there are no other gods, he just says you ain't allowed to put any before him. So maybe there is an Odin, A Ptah, An Isis or a Shiva but Yaweh is just trying to muscle in on there territory...
quote:
Finally, people DO disregard Christians. I can't get through a single day without people knocking my faith.
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it so much? If no one knows your a christian they can't knock you for it...
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Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
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Fenian
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posted January 15, 2003 05:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Roxlimn:
Fenian!
For shame! If this topic continues to generate such hateful responses, it should be locked. Your post contributes nothing to the questions the initial poster posed, and is inflammatory to a major real world religion. Quite aside from being off topic.
If the above post can be deleted to save the thread, I kindly request that it be done so.
So quoteing murderers who happen to share my hobby - implicitly linking the two- is not inflammatory?
All I am suggesting is that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
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Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Kalimynn
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posted January 15, 2003 05:59 AM
Well there are different people in the world. Unfortunately Most of the Devout Christians I have met remind me more of The mom in the movie "Waterboy" than open minded theologians. I am not saying that all are. Just the ones that "I" have met in person.
As it has been stated numerously before. DnD is just a simple game with rules and mechanics. No different than Tic-Tac-Toe, Cops and Robbers, monopoly, or pin the tail on the donkey. Just because it has elements of magic, fundamentalist christians deride and lambast the game as "Evil", "Demonic", etc....... At the same time they expect everyone to accept the elements of magic in their religon as fact. Hypocracy!
The same type of fundamentalism caused the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the current Muslim Jihad against the USA, not religon. Before attacking something you have no Idea about and supporting you views with rhetoric that hold no merit do some "Real" research. You might be suprised on what you find out about the religons of the world, RPGs, and life in general.
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The fear I leave in the back of your mind. Makes you believe that I'm one of a kind.
Those who sit on their high horse fall harder when knocked off their lofty position.
Wha???? You've got to see it to believe it.
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From: Dayton, OH | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged | |
samoosa69
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posted January 15, 2003 05:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gothic Sunshine:
How about we let this thread die.
double post! (I agree)
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PC'S: level six fighter died
: level 6 rogue died
: level 6 paladin died
: level 6 rogue/fighter (a lot of fun) died
: Level 6 cleric of pelor died
: Oobi level 2 died
: Cleric level 6 (died twice!! )
: Cleric of Pelor level 12 still alive and kicking (for the moment) I get the feeling my DM'S don't want my characters to go past level 6!!
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christian3_777
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posted January 15, 2003 06:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fenian:
So why exactly do you have to go through awful things to get closer to god? I means hes all-powerful right? He could have us all living in paradise right? And since hes all powerful he could make it so we never stray from his word,right? And since hes also all-knowing he knows way way in advance how things are gonna turn out, hes gonna know who is a sinner and a saint...so why play games with us?
Ahhhh...but how do you know that -you- have got it right?
Yeah and thats because Yaweh is in competition. Note He doesn't say there are no other gods, he just says you ain't allowed to put any before him. So maybe there is an Odin, A Ptah, An Isis or a Shiva but Yaweh is just trying to muscle in on there territory...
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it so much? If no one knows your a christian they can't knock you for it...[/QB]
Ok. This is alway the fun question. LOL.
God dosen't take complete control. He allows us to make our own decisions. Suffering in the world draws us apart from the world and closer to Him.
How do I know I have it right? I don't know, yet at the same time I do. I don't know. It's to hard to explain. There really is no way of knowing till the end right? But I'd rather not take the chance of being wrong, especially when I have seen things God does and I've had an angel encounter. I don't expect anyone to believe me, but well, that's life.
As far as there not being other gods, this one is at slant. We don't know if there are or not because anything can be a god if you idolize it. God just said that you shall have no other Gods before me.
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From: Ann Arbor | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged | |
Silverthrone
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posted January 15, 2003 06:06 AM
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it so much? If no one knows your a christian they can't knock you for it...
That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted.
The next time an African American gets called the N word or beat down by some white supremecists, maybe he should have worn an overcoat and a hat. If no one knows he's black, then they can't be prejudiced towards him. ![[Roll Eyes]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/rolleyes.gif)
Or maybe the next time a woman gets beat up by her drunk and abusive husband, she should just hide better. He couldn't have beaten her if she had hid herself better.
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From: Georgia | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
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posted January 15, 2003 06:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by christian3_777:
Ok. This is alway the fun question. LOL.
God dosen't take complete control. He allows us to make our own decisions. Suffering in the world draws us apart from the world and closer to Him.
How are we making our own decisions God knows before it even happens the consequences of every action we take. It's fore-ordained becasue god has complete control over the universe therefore there can be no free will.
But lets say there is free will. Hes all-powerful if he wanted too he could have made us with complete understanding of his plan, and with complete understanding we would presumably if we have free will choose to follow his plan -if- it was good.
But we don't have perfect understanding of his plan, so God must want us ignorant for some reason, perhaps because he knows we would not -choose- his plan if we fully understood it.
quote:
How do I know I have it right? I don't know, yet at the same time I do. I don't know. It's to hard to explain. There really is no way of knowing till the end right? But I'd rather not take the chance of being wrong, especially when I have seen things God does and I've had an angel encounter. I don't expect anyone to believe me, but well, that's life.
You know what - If I had an Angel encounter or saw real evidence of God I would be inclined to believe in him too. The funny thing is that I do actually believe in the possibility of god. But thing is if I did have evidence of Yaweh I would not necessarily be -inclined- to worship Him, becasue I am not certan that he is -good-
quote:
As far as there not being other gods, this one is at slant. We don't know if there are or not because anything can be a god if you idolize it. God just said that you shall have no other Gods before me.
Which is fine but that don't mean we have to listen does it?
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Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
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Member # 49010
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posted January 15, 2003 06:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Silverthrone:
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it so much? If no one knows your a christian they can't knock you for it...
That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted.
The next time an African American gets called the N word or beat down by some white supremecists, maybe he should have worn an overcoat and a hat. If no one knows he's black, then they can't be prejudiced towards him.
Or maybe the next time a woman gets beat up by her drunk and abusive husband, she should just hide better. He couldn't have beaten her if she had hid herself better.
You are reading too much into what I am saying:
No one should be ridiculed for what colour their skin is or what their gender is. Your thoughts and beliefs on the other hand are open to criticism. They are also private until you choose to make them otherwise...
[ January 15, 2003, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Fenian ]
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Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Silverthrone
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posted January 15, 2003 06:33 AM
Just because God knows everything does not mean he has to act on that knwoledge.
God doesn't cause suffering or pain, but such things happen, and free will is no small part in that. People who seem opposed to God always seem to wonder why God let's bad things happen, but then throw the arguement about free will on the debate field. Part of that free will includes paying for our mistakes as we earn them, and in general, a world where such things happen was all a part of that.
Biblically speaking, we are all still paying for the sins commited by our humanly progenitors. God could have stopped them, but he didn;t because that would have ceased their free will, so he allowed it. It's not his fault they had to pay the consequences.
Of course God could simply clean up after all our mistakes, and never let anyone be punished, but there is no justice in that.
Ultimately, most anti-god arguments come down to the simple idea of "Why does god get to make the rules? Who is he to tell us what to do?".
Nearly all points in all of these type debates I have ever been in can come down to that idea, and in the end, my only answer is, because he is God.
Would you let someone come into your house and break your rules and then do nothing but whatever they asked, never demanding any obidence or ground rules be followed?
Likely not.
Neither would God. If you believe that God created the universe, then understanding why he can make the rules becomes pretty easy.
I think that rational can be used on many religions for justifications, because in the end it is all a matter of faith. No one can nor should make you believe. If God himself did not choose to force you to believe, then no human should have the audacity to do so.
To each his own.
--------------------
"There is no escape from the realm of Dungeons and Dragons"
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From: Georgia | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Jak Shadow
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posted January 15, 2003 06:34 AM
I suggested letting this thread die 10 posts in, ah well.
To weigh in slightly more on topic seeing as it hasn't been allowed to fizzle out...
I was raised as a Christian in the Church of England for much of my life. I'm now 23 and a university graduate (physics with astrophysics for all the relevance that it has to this topic). I found the religious studies in my school (both my primary and secondary schools were C of E, that's ages 5-16 for anyone not familiar with the British educational system) to be interesting and took note of them. Church itself was incredibly boring but, I assume, that was related to the specific church and method of worship that they practised.
Anyway, I was raised as a Christian but the very idea of blindly accepting what I was told and following along like a sheep in the herd without first finding out what my own views were was abhorent to me. So I have examined myself and my faith and my ideas and my views and come to the conclusion that I am an agnostic, a physicist at heart. I have no belief whatsoever in Christianity or any other religion.
However, I look at it very simply. You are free to worship/follow whatever religion/faith/way of life you may desire so long as you don't try and shove it in my face. I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish and all that I ask in return is that they exercise the same restraint with me and others. Try and cram your beliefs down my throat and you'll get just as immutable counter points rammed down yours. Allow me to live with my beliefs with respect and I will treat you cordially. The occassional debate is fun too ![[Wink]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/wink.gif) .
o far I have been, for the most part, quite impressed with the posts and responses of christian3_777 in this thread. You have, generally, been calm and courteous in your posts. Unlike AdrianLP who has proven himself to be a close minded, antagonistic, fool. But I digress. Christian, despite the impressive amount of bile in this thread there have been many calm, well-worded, valid responses. I suggest you leave the ire you are currently experiencing behind and focus on those instead. I would also sugegst that you either a) forget Jack Chick entirely (you're points will gain a lot more credability if you do so, the man believes that the Cthulhu Mythos and the Necronomican are 100% real after all); or b) re-read what he has to say with renewed objectivity, taking the time to examine his 'evidence' and 'studies' for the misguided and irrelevant propeganda that they are. If nothing else read his comic again (Dark Tower I believe it's called) and ask yourself if you honestly believe that the situation depicted within is real because Jack Chick certainly does. To most people here it is either tragically funny or just plain annoying (I fall into the tragically funny camp) and I feel certain that if you read it you will understand what I mean. The man is a bigot and a moron with no concern for facts or evidence when he can manifest hearsay and conjecture and spout foul and idiotic persecutionist jargon to his hearts content. Any who behave as he does and call themselves Christians are deluded, Christianity isn't about persecution, it is about love and tolerance. Remember that as you read his belligerant tracts of meaningless drivel.
Peace.
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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Silverthrone
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posted January 15, 2003 06:37 AM
No one should be ridiculed for what colour their skin is or what their gender is. Your thoughts and beliefs on the other hand are open to criticism. They are also private until you choose to make hem otherwise...
That in no way makes them open for criticism. Just because you say something does not give others the right to critisize your choices.
If you do not like something, then do not read it, but if it is not being crammed down your throat, then don't complain about another's choices with their own life. It's not hurting your or anyone else, it's their choice and they have a right to make it free of criticism.
If it hurts someone or promote illegal activites, then yes, if not, then crticism only comes off as small mindedness when it comes to issues like this.
That is the same sort of backward "Don't ask, don't tell." type crap the government pushes on homosexuals in the military.
--------------------
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From: Georgia | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged | |
denarought
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posted January 15, 2003 06:45 AM
For the love of God will someone please end this stalemate and lock this thread. Im amazed that more people have answered this thread than any Min/Max topic in the last week or more. And i dont understand how so many people who dont like D&D have screen names to post on a D&D board, crazy!
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Jak Shadow
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posted January 15, 2003 06:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by denarought:
For the love of God will someone please end this stalemate and lock this thread. Im amazed that more people have answered this thread than any Min/Max topic in the last week or more. And i dont understand how so many people who dont like D&D have screen names to post on a D&D board, crazy!
If nothing else it gives me something to read at work
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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 15, 2003 06:46 AM
elrond_the_halfelven
Men do things in God's name which are evil. That doesn't mean they came from God, it just means men are imperfect and do stupid things they shouldn't.
Galahad_Knight
I've played D&D for a very long time, and I don't think it's generally played in an uplifting manner. Show me a group who claims their game isn't based in part around killing monsters and I'll show you a group of liars (which isn't to say they don't exist, it's just very rare). Trouble is the people here saying that it is not evil don't even know what evil is and isn't. They only have media stereotypes and extreme exagerations of evil to go by.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
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posted January 15, 2003 06:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Silverthrone:
Just because God knows everything does not mean he has to act on that knwoledge.
God doesn't cause suffering or pain, but such things happen, and free will is no small part in that. People who seem opposed to God always seem to wonder why God let's bad things happen, but then throw the arguement about free will on the debate field. Part of that free will includes paying for our mistakes as we earn them, and in general, a world where such things happen was all a part of that.
Okay but here is my point- god already knows even before I enter the world what all my decisions are gonna be he knows before hand if I am gonna go to hell, and if I am he does nothing to stop it, he just lets me burn.
quote:
Biblically speaking, we are all still paying for the sins commited by our humanly progenitors. God could have stopped them, but he didn;t because that would have ceased their free will, so he allowed it. It's not his fault they had to pay the consequences.
But here is the rub, God new A+E were gonna fall, even beefore he created them. If he wanted to he could have warded the tree of knowledge with all the angels in heaven. But he choose not too. I am not a parent yet but when I am I know that I am gonna do my best to see that my child does not go jumping of cliffs or sticking his or her arm in a bonfire or for that matter eating strange fruit off of a tree.
quote:
Of course God could simply clean up after all our mistakes, and never let anyone be punished, but there is no justice in that.
Or he could make it so the mistakes never happen, and thus eliminate the -need- for justice. Or make it so we only have the desire to do good. When you are all-powerful you can set the world up the way you like it. So there must be some -reason- why god -wants- pain and suffering in the world. And try as I might I can think why a loving god would want that so that draws me to the conclusion that God may have just as many frailties as the roman gods did, I wouldn't want to worship Zeus and I don't want to worship Yaweh.
quote:
Ultimately, most anti-god arguments come down to the simple idea of "Why does god get to make the rules? Who is he to tell us what to do?".
I don't have a problem with God setting the rules I have problems with his motivations.
quote:
Nearly all points in all of these type debates I have ever been in can come down to that idea, and in the end, my only answer is, because he is God.
Would you let someone come into your house and break your rules and then do nothing but whatever they asked, never demanding any obidence or ground rules be followed?
Likely not.
But then again I am not blessed with the ability to see what type of guest they will be in advance or the ability to change the nature of my guests at will.
quote:
Neither would God. If you believe that God created the universe, then understanding why he can make the rules becomes pretty easy.
I think that rational can be used on many religions for justifications, because in the end it is all a matter of faith. No one can nor should make you believe. If God himself did not choose to force you to believe, then no human should have the audacity to do so.
To each his own.
Which I guess is why I have a hard time with Faith. Ultimately it is not rational. Note that I am not trying to say that its lack of rationality is a bad thing only merely that it is hard to debate something which is not grounded on evidence.
As you say to each to their own.
[ January 15, 2003, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Fenian ]
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Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
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posted January 15, 2003 06:54 AM
The Fallacy of this thread
--------------------------
Most people here do not have a clue what evil is, yet they claim D&D is not evil.
The evil associated with D&D being discussed is not the extremes. We are NOT discussing those that take it way too seriously. We are NOT discussing those that go into the real world and commit crimes. We are NOT talking about extremes. We're talking about the little things like desensitisation, non-uplifting game matter, things of this nature.
C. S. Lewis gave us a keen insight into devilish tactics. In a fictional letter, the master devil, Screwtape, instructs the apprentice devil Wormwood, who is in training to become a more experienced devil:
You will say that these are very small sins; and doubtless, like all young tempters, you are anxious to be able to report spectacular wickedness. It does not matter how small the sins are, provided that their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the Light and out into the Nothing. Indeed, the safest road to Hell is the gradual onethe gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. (1)
Does every D&D session have said elements? No, they do not. It is possible to play D&D in an uplifting way. However I do not believe the untrained person knows what it means to be uplifting as to achieve said ends with regularity.
1) The Screwtape Letters (New York: Macmillan, 1961), pp. 64-65
[ January 15, 2003, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: AdrianLP ]
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
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posted January 15, 2003 06:59 AM
For further discussion on the Christian side of things. Questions, comments, concerns over Christianity in general, write to me at:
dnd@mormon.mine.nu
...the mail server challenges all incoming mail by requiring a reply to an autoresponse. So there is no need in trying to sign me up for spam, I will literally never see it.
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denarought
Member
Member # 108836
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posted January 15, 2003 07:00 AM
Okay i got a big question, what if D&D is evil and we all just want to burn in hell, is that really so bad. AS an untrained person i guess im just to untrained to know whats right or wrong. Perhaps i need my ability to make decisions taken away and let only trained people make it for me. Then i would be just a happy smitten fool.
originally posted by Jak Shadow:
quote:
If nothing else it gives me something to read at work
Good point all though i think we should close the gate before Jessie Helms and the risen Spirit of H.P> Lovecraft get involved
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Hence, the cambion strode, unabated to the feast of souls.
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Jak Shadow
Member
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posted January 15, 2003 07:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
The Fallacy of this thread
--------------------------
Most people here do not have a clue what evil is, yet they claim D&D is not evil.
Wrong. That is the fallicy of your entire reason for arguing on this thread. You firmly believe that you know what evil is and are qualified to judge what it is and that anyone who does not share your opinion on this is wrong. That is arrogant and, besides all else, plainly false. You have no greater insight into exactly what is or isn't evil than anyone else despite what you may believe. I am not going to convince you of this fact, I'm not even going to try as it would be pointless, I am just going to state it and leave it at that.
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From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
Member
Member # 49010
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posted January 15, 2003 07:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Silverthrone:
That in no way makes them open for criticism. Just because you say something does not give others the right to critisize your choices.
If you do not like something, then do not read it, but if it is not being crammed down your throat, then don't complain about another's choices with their own life. It's not hurting your or anyone else, it's their choice and they have a right to make it free of criticism.
If it hurts someone or promote illegal activites, then yes, if not, then crticism only comes off as small mindedness when it comes to issues like this.
That is the same sort of backward "Don't ask, don't tell." type crap the government pushes on homosexuals in the military.
I have been approached by strangers at bus stops asking me if I believe in god. I have walked past street preachers who are extolling the virtues of God. I have turned the telly on and been bombarded with tele-evangelists. If you publish something by jove I have a right to express my opinions on what you have said. Just as you are free to criticise what I have said in turn.
Just as we are now.
On that note we are in agreement I agree people have the right to have whatever opinions they want. But once they -tell- me about them (and they have every right to do so) then I have every right to tell them exactly what I think of their opinion.
--------------------
Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
Member
Member # 49010
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
The Fallacy of this thread
--------------------------
Most people here do not have a clue what evil is, yet they claim D&D is not evil.
The evil associated with D&D being discussed is not the extremes. We are NOT discussing those that take it way too seriously. We are NOT discussing those that go into the real world and commit crimes. We are NOT talking about extremes. We're talking about the little things like desensitisation, non-uplifting game matter, things of this nature.
C. S. Lewis gave us a keen insight into devilish tactics. In a fictional letter, the master devil, Screwtape, instructs the apprentice devil Wormwood, who is in training to become a more experienced devil:
You will say that these are very small sins; and doubtless, like all young tempters, you are anxious to be able to report spectacular wickedness. It does not matter how small the sins are, provided that their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the Light and out into the Nothing. Indeed, the safest road to Hell is the gradual onethe gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. (1)
Does every D&D session have said elements? No, they do not. It is possible to play D&D in an uplifting way. However I do not believe the untrained person knows what it means to be uplifting as to achieve said ends with regularity.
1) The Screwtape Letters (New York: Macmillan, 1961), pp. 64-65
Okay but what evidence is there that D&D causes desensitization? I would argue that there are fairly nasty things (treatment of women, attitudes and actions towards non-christians, things of that nature) going on in the Bible that most Christians don't even notice and to that end I would think that the Bible is more desensitising. D&D goes to pains to point out that it is a work of Imagination, while the bible purports to be fact. Certainly I would think that D&D is mild compared to other forms of media.
Not that I am convinced that the desensitisation is an actual reality in the first place. New Zealanders watch the same TV and Movies, listen to the same Music and play the same games as Americans. Yet the crime rate is infintesemal compared to Americas. I think Media is just a scape-goat. I reccomend a movie: 'Bowling for Columbine' that looks into similar issues.
--------------------
Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Kevmann
Member
Member # 106090
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:21 AM
I have this image in the back of my mind that Wizards of the Coast is reading this post and laughing ther butts off.
I think the reason they have not closed the thread is because they are interested in what the consumer thinks. Perhaps they have been waiting for such a thread to see the other side of the story. Perhaps they are takeing in the information and planning to use it to modify D&D in the revised verison to be more religious-friendly, therby attracting more buyers. Perhaps they are just so ammused at the topic they do not wish to close it.
Or mabie because no one has complained that this post is insulting or disrespecting them and because the thread has not yet disentegrated to name-calling yet.
Oh yea, smile!
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"SW33T, L33T LOOT!"
Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:22 AM
denarought
Burn in hell? No, that's not what hell is. Hell is knowing that God exists. Standing in his presence, knowing that he is our father, and that we could have eventually become like him. But being cast out of his presence for eternity because of stupid choices we made. Before this life we lived with him. Upon our deaths we will have a full recollection of that time. Despite how you feel now, you will feel remorse later if you're cast from his presence.
Jak Shadow
You forget that I did not start this thread. As for knowing what is and is not evil, I hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. I hold the gift of the holy ghost. I am ordained a priest to God. I benefit from person revelation, and the blessings of going often to the temple. I have both the power and authority to speak in God's name. I know of what I speak, because I speak the words of God. Don't worry though, there will come a day when you will know and understand, and in that day you will have such an understanding that even you may not deny the power thereof.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:23 AM
Fenian
<shrugs>
D&D is not uplifting (according to the definition given by scripture). Therefore it is not of God. Anything not of God is of the devil.
http://www.wadi.org.uk/article_26b.htm
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/women/archive/family1.html
http://www.richmond.edu/~psych/tvagdesens.html
http://www.dispatch.co.za/2000/08/01/features/FLICK.HTM
Eysenck, H. and Nias, D., "Desensitisation, Violence and the Media", Media Studies: A Reader, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 1999, pp. 425-432.
Why We Watch : The Attractions of Violent Entertainment, ed. Jeffrey Goldstein, Oxford University Press, New York,1998.
James Potter, On Media Violence, Sage Publications, London, 1999.
Lecture Three: Media Effects: The Violence Debate
Essential Reading:
Kenneth Thompson, Moral Panics, Routledge, London, 1998, pp. 87-110.
[ January 15, 2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: AdrianLP ]
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
Member
Member # 49010
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Fenian
<shrugs>
D&D is not uplifting (according to the definition given by scripture). Therefore it is not of God. Anything not of God is of the devil.
May I ask why you play the game then? Also please what i sthe definition of uplifting according to scripture (if its possible to define briefly?) or perhaps you can point me somwhere where I could find out for my self?
--------------------
Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:29 AM
Fenian
Uplifting is anything which brings you closer to God, which allows you to more easily feel and "hear" the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Why do I play the game? It *can* be done in an uplifting way. Not if your intentions are killing monsters and gaining power however.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Jak Shadow
Member
Member # 39941
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Jak Shadow
You forget that I did not start this thread. As for knowing what is and is not evil, I hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. I hold the gift of the holy ghost. I am ordained a priest to God. I benefit from person revelation, and the blessings of going often to the temple. I have both the power and authority to speak in God's name. I know of what I speak, because I speak the words of God. Don't worry though, there will come a day when you will know and understand, and in that day you will have such an understanding that even you may not deny the power thereof.
And you are free to believe this, it's your life and your mind and your faith. Go for it. Try and throw it at me and at best you'll get laughed at. All your thinly veiled threats as to my lack of understanding are meaningless in a world in which your God does not exist. For me we live in that world, therefore your words are meaningless Nonetheless you are entitled to believe them. Personally I'll keep living my life the way I believe is right, trying my best to follow my moral and ethical compass and be what I consider a good person. And having fun along the way.
--------------------
"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:42 AM
Jak Shadow
Throw it at you? You misunderstand dear sir. There will come a day, when you have passed from this world, when Christ will tell you himself. I'm personally not interested in teaching those that don't want to learn anyway.
[ January 15, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: AdrianLP ]
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Sunrider
Member
Member # 118923
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:44 AM
The trouble with arguing with christians (or those of any other religion, for that matter) is that they always make you argue on THEIR terms. Not just about D&D either, but about almost anything else - evolution, life, death, genetic engineering, etc. And just like fighting on a battleground prepared by the enemy, with traps in place and units already in positions, IT'S HARD!!! Every time an argument breaks through a religious defence, another defence is moved into place, the meaning of another piece of scripture is twisted, emotion and tradition are brought into play or other arguments which sound good but don't actually answer the question are introduced in an ad hoc fashion (how many times have you heard 'arguments' and assertions such as 'You must have faith' or 'God works in mysterious ways'. It's like a minefield - if you don't run into the first, second or third, chances are that sooner or later you'll hit something.
So, to all you religious fundamentalists out there, let's argue on different terms for a change:
I'm an athiest. I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. I don't believe in angels or demons, 'miracles' or prophecies, resurrection or afterlife. I don't believe in Adam and Eve, in creation or virgin births. I don't believe that prayer has any special effects, nor do I believe that pentagrams are evil or the number 666 of any special significance. I do not believe in Allah or Yahveh, Vishnu or Shiva, or any other divine entity.
I believe that Jesus was a man of semitic origin, nothing more, nothing less. He was also a philosopher (which is evidenced by the Bible when it is used as a piece of historical evidence rather than as religious scripture), as well as a political and social activist. I believe that Mohammed was also a man, a merchant-turned-warrior, who was also a philosopher who speculated on the nature of life and death, and on the origins of the world around him. I believe that the Bible, Torah and Koran are books or compilations of books regarding law and history, as well as the beliefs of ancient peoples - nothing more, nothing less. I believe that a pentagram is a five-pointed star and a crucifix an instrument of torture and execution. I believe that holy water consists of H2O with a small percentage of dissolved impurities (holiness not being one of them) and that 666 is one greater than 665, one less than 667 and equal to 10100011010 in binary or 29A in hexadecimal. I believe that Dungeons and Dragons is a game, nothing more, nothing less. All of which can be ascertained through observable evidence or proven directly.
Now, tell me, in logical argument, without assuming things which cannot be proven or supported through observable evidence, why D&D is evil.
Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:47 AM
Sunrider
It doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, for God believes in you.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Jak Shadow
Member
Member # 39941
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Jak Shadow
Throw it at you? You mis understand dear sir. There will come a day, when you have passed from this world, when Christ will tell you himself. I'm personally not interested in teaching those that don't want to learn anyway.
I do not misunderstand you at all. I am well aware that this is what you are refering to. To me your theories of my future judgement are meaningless. Simple as that. You are entitled to them but, please, don't try and use them in debate or argument with me as to me they hold no water.
Or: 
--------------------
"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:49 AM
Sunrider
It doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, for God believes in you.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
AdrianLP
Member
Member # 60770
|
posted January 15, 2003 07:50 AM
Jak Shadow
If I'm correct, I'm fully justified, even if you personally don't have faith.
From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Xeviat-DM
Member
Member # 60438
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posted January 15, 2003 07:52 AM
Seeing as my post was entirely ignored, and that's ok, I have one thing to say (which is echoed by many of the other posters):
Nearly everything being stated here is opinion. This thread has become filled with religion bashing, but you know what I see that makes me laugh and cry at the same time? The non-christian posters here seem to be taking a more civil rout than the christians.
I am, as I stated, christian. I am questioning the aplication of my christianity, because I have not found a church which apeals to me. But, as an intelligent human being, I understand that I could be wrong. I understand that the bible could have been forged (though with recent paleological findings that idea is getting harder and harder to prove). I understand that everything I hold dear could have been all a chance coincidence. But you know what? It doesn't make me feel bad. If I die and find that there is no heaven, I still lived a better life due to my faith.
To all the antagonistic christian posters, you are being very combative, arrogant, and closed minded. I understand that by the word of the bible, we are to preach gods word whenever we can. But some of these posts are becoming attacks on these other people's faiths. I've found that the best way to earn a person's ear (which is the first step to get them to listen to you) is not to act like you're above them (which the posts of the priest have made me feel), but to act like you're with them, maybe even below them. Let them feel that their belief's are as real as yours. Don't attack their faith or lack of, but show them by example what is good about yours. With that, they may research on their own, and find their way.
But as I said, they could be right, and I could be wrong. Who knows.
Maybe I can fish out my old research paper and post it online, or at least the site of online resources that I used.
Oh, and if you're willing to be open minded and read both sides of the arguement, do this for me. Read the Introduction page in the Player's Handbook. Then read Jack Chick's web-pages against D&D. Then read the entire Player's Handbook.
--------------------
Jak Shadow, I am with you, not in belief's but in execution. So I'll ask too.
Adrian, without refering to your religious credentials, or any religious (christian or satanism alike), please argue the side of "DnD is evil." I ask you, because you seem to be a very educated person, and even if you don't believe it is evil, any good debator can argue the oposite side.
Oh and Jak, if you'd like some healthy convorsation/debate about those things you do not believe in, email me. I love a good debate (and I won't refer to the bible much because I haven't memorized it yet).
[ January 15, 2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Xeviat-DM ]
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Light cannot exist without darkness, for without the shadows, what would there be to define the light?
Looking for help with my new spellcasting system
New Spellcasting system Version 0.5
My World's Races: Critisism Wanted
From: Southern California, USA | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Jak Shadow
Member
Member # 39941
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Jak Shadow
If I'm correct, I'm fully justified, even if you personally don't have faith.
Completely true. The difference between us is that I'm willing to accept that fact, the fact that you could be correct, and base my opinions and argument around that. You, however, are unwilling to see the other side of the srgument at all. So yes, you might be right and I'm perfectly willing to admit that you might, but to hold a civilised conversation free of arrogance then you must be willing to accept the fact that I might be right. The difference between us then becomes one of faith rather than one of high handedness.
--------------------
"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Sunrider
Member
Member # 118923
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Sunrider
It doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, for God believes in you.
Who's to say that this is true? It's not something that cnn be proven, and the burden of proof is on the purporter. It's not even possible to show evidence for this that cannot be explained by a more plausible (i.e. observable) argument, so you really have no argument there.
This is the same thing perpetrated by religious groups everywhere - always challenging nonbelievers to disprove their arguments, when there is no proof or evidence to be disproved in the first place.
Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
Member
Member # 49010
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Fenian
<shrugs>
D&D is not uplifting (according to the definition given by scripture). Therefore it is not of God. Anything not of God is of the devil.
http://www.wadi.org.uk/article_26b.htm
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/women/archive/family1.html
http://www.richmond.edu/~psych/tvagdesens.html
http://www.dispatch.co.za/2000/08/01/features/FLICK.HTM
Eysenck, H. and Nias, D., "Desensitisation, Violence and the Media", Media Studies: A Reader, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 1999, pp. 425-432.
Why We Watch : The Attractions of Violent Entertainment, ed. Jeffrey Goldstein, Oxford University Press, New York,1998.
James Potter, On Media Violence, Sage Publications, London, 1999.
Lecture Three: Media Effects: The Violence Debate
Essential Reading:
Kenneth Thompson, Moral Panics, Routledge, London, 1998, pp. 87-110.
Hi again, i wanted you to know I have read the links you have provided me but i would like to provide you with a few of my own:
http://www.abffe.com/myth1.htm
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3855
http://www.fepproject.org/news/aapletter.html
--------------------
Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
Sunrider
Member
Member # 118923
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Sunrider
It doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not, for God believes in you.
Who's to say that this is true? It's not something that cnn be proven, and the burden of proof is on the purporter. It's not even possible to show evidence for this that cannot be explained by a more plausible (i.e. observable) argument, so you really have no argument there.
This is the same thing perpetrated by religious groups everywhere - always challenging nonbelievers to disprove their arguments, when there is no proof or evidence to be disproved in the first place.
Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged | |
Fenian
Member
Member # 49010
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianLP:
Fenian
Uplifting is anything which brings you closer to God, which allows you to more easily feel and "hear" the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Why do I play the game? It *can* be done in an uplifting way. Not if your intentions are killing monsters and gaining power however.
Is this uplifting?
http://www.home-n-heart.com/dragonraid.html
--------------------
Cheers
Fenian
15th level Snack-slayer
From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged | |
WizO_Snark
Member # 59300
|
posted January 15, 2003 08:15 AM
The issue of religion and D&D is a very sensitive one. Many gamers are very defensive about their hobby, having been victims, percieved or otherwise, of religious persecution. Likewise, many religious gamers have suffered similar persecution at the hands of those same persecuted gamers. Such is to be expected whenever one group of people decides to tell another group that their way of life is wrong. And hence, the problem here. There is nothing wrong with discussing religion and D&D on these boards in a mature way, but this thread is full of way too many attacks and counter attacks.
For future reference, asking anyone if they think what they do is evil is highly insulting. Few people deliberatly commit an act that they would consider evil. Asking that question implies that they would.
Any thread posted on these boards that starts out in an accusatory manner is going to generate heated replies like we see here, and is thus going to generate the same response from me. ![[NoNoNo]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
'click'
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"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."
"The Hunting of the Snark: an Agony in Eight Fits" by Lewis Carroll
From: The Wabe | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged | | | |
![[Dropjaw]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/graemlins/dropjaw.gif)
I can see that this is going absolutely nowhere.![[Confused]](http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/confused.gif)
